Just noticed http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=conservation_access:micg.pdf.  Well done Andrew.

good  to read mud-throwng and modeling is out of order .. Ive never liked peple doing that  in caves so well done, BCA , for saying it .

Well done, I agree. I disagree with some of the specifics, but this is at least a much better starting-place than the parallel version put out by the NSS.

I especially appreciate that the responsibilities of everyone involved in new exploration are addressed. I'm not a skilled (or even a serviceable) photographer, and would have little inclination to improve if not for having seen the before and after of many caves. I do not think that the need to photograph decorated discoveries can be overstated. It's certainly more important than survey.

This looks great, we've been looking for something like this for a while. How would we go about getting hold of some of these to aid with training of new members next year?

Edit: I'm w/ Exeter Uni

The guidelines are in the process of being printed.  They will be available in printed form by and at Eurospeleo.  There is also a six point code which should also appear widely. 

The aim is to make these available to all clubs, instructor groups, regional councils, events, etc.  Hopefully people will find them in their favourite huts, cafes and other suitable places where cavers may congregate.

You should hear more about this from BCA shortly.

Excellent, thanks Badlad.

It's a good guide.

Am I really not allowed to pee in a stream way?

Well spotted, Bob!

Yep - this document is the result of a lot of hard work by Andrew Hinde and the Conservation & Access Committee. Well done to all. As Badlad says, paper versions will be available in the coming months. In the meantime, it would be great if we could all could spread the pdf far and wide.

Many thanks.

JUST STAY OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

global_s said:

It's a good guide.

Am I really not allowed to pee in a stream way?

Click to expand...

As long it's not lumpy pee.

RobinGriffiths said:

global_s said:

It's a good guide.

Am I really not allowed to pee in a stream way?

Click to expand...

As long it's not lumpy pee.

Click to expand...

I pondered on whether this point was just a wind up or a real question.  In the end I decided to treat it for real and provide a fuller response.

I sense this is a classic example of the conundrum which surrounds conservation.  At one extreme I am sure most people reading this have been into rock shelters used as toilets and seen / smelt the results.  The question "Am I really not allowed to pee in a stream way?" has an implied flushing mechanism.  So what is the problem if there is a flush.  Well, what about the impact on the local flora and fauna before the pee is diluted?  What about many people peeing overwhelming the perhaps small stream?  What happens if the stream feeds someone's drinking water supply?  It seems simpler to say 'don't pee' using the precautionary principle, rather than to spell out all the considerations to provide an explanation which I regret people may not read or worse, even fail to understand. 

It is worth quoting the start of Section 3 of the NCA Cave Conservation Handbook:

The fundamental objective is to retain all caves in as near a natural state as possible and to conserve those elements of particularly high scientific importance. The justification for this objective has been given in the introduction, namely:
? Caves are a valuable scientific resource
? There is a moral duty to conserve caves for future generations
? Caves are an integral part of our natural heritage
Conservation does not necessarily mean preservation. Conservation in this context is the best possible use of a limited resource.

Whilst the example of Lascaux being shut due to the mold impacting on the paintings is an extreme; it is worth repeating a sentence from the article on Hunters Lodge Inn Sink in Descent 250:

Whilst the rest of the cave hasn?t been vandalised, it has nethertheless suffered  at the hands of careless or perhaps naive cavers ? general traffic has introduced wear and the tape path has gradually widened, stals have become dirtied and the odd formation accidentally damaged.?

I hope this gives some insight into the topic of conservation and the dilemmas which surround its implementation.

It's a good guide.

But it misses the basic truth that simply entering and moving through a cave degrades it. This is less problematic in high-energy stream caves but is critical in dry, low-energy cave environments.

So the best thing for 'cave conservation' might well be the shrinking caver population.....

droid said:

So the best thing for 'cave conservation' might well be the shrinking caver population.....

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interesting mind set for a caver. next thing you might recommend is to fence off ALL the mountains to reduce erosion 

Good idea, there....lol

droid said:

But it misses the basic truth that simply entering and moving through a cave degrades it.

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But the words "...in as near a natural state..." and "...Conservation does not necessarily mean preservation." clearly point to accepting some degradation in all but presumably extreme cases.  I fully accept a "high energy stream environment" such as Swildon's stream way will obliterate all sign of a visit (including a pee) whilst say Trat's Temple will not withstand much.  So should we tape Trat's Temple, even though it is a long long way degraded from when it was first discovered? 

Note also the quote about HLIS includes the permissible despoilation of the floor within the tape but not outside of where it was first laid.  One thought which has crossed my mind is how do we adopt systems which can catch gradual creeping / extension of these boundaries.  After all if you visit a place for the first time, how do you know where the tape should be?

Regarding fencing mountains, I can still fairly vividly recall from 1975 walking through a meadow in the High Sierras on a path which was almost a foot deeper than the meadow, so the rest of the meadow was kept unspolit.  I now see that over here in our mountains and hills; tracks which cut a brown way through lovely green grass.  Should we tolerate the brown way or ban 9 in 10 people (or would it be 99 in 100) from walking the route?  And by extension, should we also do that in caves?

I'll no doubt get pole-axed for this, but I think large tracts of caves in this country are probably degraded beyond help.

We have limited resources. Maybe they would be better deployed conserving the newer, *relatively* pristine cave environments.

Bob Mehew said:

So should we tape Trat's Temple, even though it is a long long way degraded from when it was first discovered? 

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I taped it many years ago. The tape was taken out by persons unknown within next to no time. I kinda think the rationale with SH is that the entire cave is open season. If so it probably cannot be conserved.

droid said:

We have limited resources. Maybe they would be better deployed conserving the newer, *relatively* pristine cave environments.

Click to expand...

I'd certainly agree with the second sentence.

Regarding the first sentence, yes, the resources are limited, but there are significant resources available, more than sufficient to make a difference, both to new discoveries and established ones. The main stumbling blocks are probably mindset combined with a lack of proactive conservationists. The good news is that both can be solved.