Dan yr Ogof closed to cavers on Fri 3/6

Status
Not open for further replies.

Alex

Well-known member
Does he not realise that we only want open access to cavers, not really people with head torches etc. Open access does not make any difference to general public as they would not know anything about any permit systems in place in the first place and go down them anyway, regardless of CROW act. I think he has got the wrong end of the stick in my opinion. (Also being a show cave, I guess it counts as a structure so people would not get un-fettered access to his cave anyway) I seem to recall a door and external building in-front of the cave.

 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
This seems like a rather short sighted argument against open access; by the same logic we shouldn't be allowed on the hills where we may get lost and die of exposure, fall in rivers and drown, and some hills have big vertical drops that we may fall down and cause injury to ourselves. :confused:

Edit: talking about the first article as opposed to the second.
 

2xw

Active member
ABIS points out conservation concerns, proceeds to fill caves with lights, stairs, pathways, railings and massive fences and buildings.

Just trying to protect their commercial interests, which I suppose must be difficult when your sole income comes from illuminating holes in the ground and overcharging the public for the privilege.
 

2xw

Active member
Am I alone in not caring about the opinions of 15 buisnesses whos sole purpose is to keep their own pockets lined?

This is a load of hot air, regardless of how "significant" they believe their extreme minority opinions to be.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
What a shame it's come to this. I imagine those with the belligerent attitude to showcaves won't be visiting the wild caves they are custodians of any time soon then.
 

2xw

Active member
What a shame somebody started the Daily Mail of the caving world to commercialise their own hot air.

We should all be custodians of wild caves. Not some bloke with a key and something to sell.
 

MarkS

Moderator
This all seems completely ridiculous.

Do ABIS think that caves not being accessible under CRoW is the primary reason that the public (who are non-cavers) don't enter caves at the moment?!
 

JJ

Member
How sad  :cautious:  I was under the impression that the relationship between show cave owners and cavers had greatly improved over the last 20 years. I expect that this will lead to increased resentment to them as already shown in this thread - a shame.

It would appear that ABIS may have been seriously misinformed at some stage. Similar arguments were banded around before the introduction of CRoW above ground, these concerns almost everyone agrees have been unfounded.
 

Alex

Well-known member
This all seems completely ridiculous.

Do ABIS think that caves not being accessible under CRoW is the primary reason that the public (who are non-cavers) don't enter caves at the moment?!

My point exactly - And furthermore repeating a point made by someone on Facebook not here. Its not like it's safe wandering about the moors, falling off cliffs, drowning in resoviors getting lost etc. In UWFRA we get far FAR more shouts for that than anything underground. Overall I would say underground tends to be safer, because people know/assume its dangerous, so take more care, regardless of access. Where as walking about on a sunny fell on a warm day does not seem dangerous, until you fall down that dis-used mine shaft covered in grass (happened to someone I know).

By the current law according to DEFRA it would be legal for them to kill them selves in Gaping Gill for example as they would be in "day light".
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Have ABIS been misinformed? There have been direct meetings between ABIS and BCA.... if you care to actually read the statement.

Two detailed meetings have taken place between officials from BCA and ABIS to try to resolve the difference of opinions regarding the opening up of a substantial number of wild caves to the general public.  However, it was not possible to reconcile the different points of view represented by both parties at these meetings.

So in two detailed meetings, the BCA had the opportunity to inform ABIS - and I am sure they did. So perhaps you need to find another more fundamental reason why this is happening, and not simply blame misinformation.
 

ah147

New member
May I suggest that we refrain from any sort of insult/derogatory comment aimed towards Mr Price?

We currently have access to DYO, and in my experience he's always very very helpful towards cavers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
2xw said:
Am I alone in not caring about the opinions of 15 buisnesses whos sole purpose is to keep their own pockets lined?

This is a load of hot air, regardless of how "significant" they believe their extreme minority opinions to be.

I suspect you are in a select band of people, yes.

Sole Purpose? No! how many times have you heard of cavers being allowed into a showcave on a boat?
I know it's a different area but still If you annoy one and the rest get to hear of it then you'll get their backs up!
What happens if someone wanted to borrow electricity, for say a project.

You would presumably be livid if one oil company decided not to supply petrol for a day causing a spike in the petrol prices, or if an airline went on strike on the day you were about to go on expedition to Europe.

There are showcaves with very good relationships with the cavers and it would be sad to see this eroded.
 

Mrs Bottlebank

New member
I am ashamed (although not surprised) by some nasty attitudes to an association of business' who employ local people who have an opinion they would like to share.

Its as though you think they are all "fat cats" who have nothing to do with caving.
 

Alex

Well-known member
I have nothing against the showcave owner other than I do not agree with his opinion and want to put my point across as to why, are you saying I should say nothing, never discuss the taboo subject? Sorry this is a democracy, we still have free although limited speech last time I checked.
 
Firstly, it is not unknown for DYO showcaves to drum up some free bank-holiday publicity in the local press - it can be argued that "any publicity is good publicity".

Secondly, it is, on this occasion, worth looking at the Darkness Below link given above, in which we find this (selected) quote:
"...Hence, it was agreed at a general meeting of ABIS to recommend to all showcave members that on Friday the 3rd June 2016, all showcaves in England and Wales should be closed to cavers for that day.

The above resolution was passed at the ABIS  meeting with deep regret by ABIS members, but the repercussions outlined above are considered so serious that a symbolic gesture had to be taken...."

So, which other show caves will be making a symbolic gesture on Friday 3rd?
 

JJ

Member
JJ said:
It would appear that ABIS may have been seriously misinformed at some stage. Similar arguments were banded around before the introduction of CRoW above ground, these concerns almost everyone agrees have been unfounded.

My point Peter is that perhaps ABIS should speak to their relevant Access Authority under CRoW to establish the problems encountered in their own areas since the introduction of the act. With due respect I don't think the BCA can comment on this with any authority.
 

Ogof anghenfil

New member
It's nice to see that Ashford Price used a photo of his best mate 'Mr Frost' in the article for the South Wales Evening Post. :hug:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top