Martin McGuinness RIP

rhychydwr1

Active member
Martin McGuinness dies aged 66 years.  He was a passionate republican who worked tirelessly for peace and reconciliation and for the reunification of his country.  RIP
 

Oceanrower

Active member
Martin McGuinness dies aged 66 years. He was a murdering bastard with the blood of many innocent people on his hands. May he rot in hell.
 

Jopo

Active member
Whilst I believe in free speech lets stick to caving politics on this forum please.



Jopo
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Or even better, just stick to caving . . .   

(Although I do also recognise the importance of free speech.)
 

Oceanrower

Active member
Clearly there's a misunderstanding. I thought this was the 'Idle chat' part of the forum so nothing to do with caving.
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
Oceanrower said:
Clearly there's a misunderstanding. I thought this was the @Idle chat' part of the forum so nothing to do with caving.

'Idle Chat - General chat about anything' so if forum members want to chat about Martin McGuinness in this section, please feel free to do so.  I doubt many cavers, when they get together chat exclusively about caving and nothing else, hence Idle Chat on the forum.  Cheers, Pegasus


 

Simon Wilson

New member
rhychydwr1 said:
Martin McGuinness ... was a passionate republican who worked tirelessly for peace and reconciliation and for the reunification of his country. 

Yes he was but also he

Oceanrower said:
... was a murdering bastard with the blood of many innocent people on his hands.

I think the problem many people have is in reconciling those two things.

Under the leadership of Martin McGuiness the IRA carried out the most heinous bombings which killed innocent people who had no connection whatsoever with the Irish troubles. Yet he was a man capable of the most extraordinary acts of pacifism; clever public displays? The problem I have always had is that he appeared to only put weapons  to one side when he had exhausted what weapons could achieve and made a strategic decision to continue with politics. At the same time he appeared to hold the belief that the armed struggle had been justified and got them where they were 'in power'. It's difficult to accept but accept it we must.

Having said that, I think it is a pity that he died so young and will not be around during what is looming. A hard border will never be acceptable and if the British government were stupid enough to try it, it could well turn out to be the most important step towards the unified Ireland that Martin McGuiness fought for.
 

Alex

Well-known member
Why the heck is the BBC making such a big deal out of this ex-terrorist? They make it sound like the queen died or something. He probably reformed as he felt so guilty for what he had done? No he was afraid of being arrested and this was his only way out. It makes me sick how BBC make him sound like some sort of hero. His death should just be mentioned in passing only.
 

Alkapton

Member
He was someone who grew up in a particular time and place.    I had the privalige of knowing a man who grew up with him.    They might not have been best friends, but both were products of their environment and both were 'honerable' (honest? true to their beliefs, loyal to their community) whatever else you want to say McGuinnes has done more than most people to end the violence.

Cavers tend to be very strong willed people (possibly the only thing we all have in common), so I wonder how many if brought up in a context of extream prejudice would not have also turned to 'armed resistance'.    I might be a passifist but if I'd been brought up in similar conditions I would probably have become involved in the troubles.    Life is like that.

Tiocfaidh ?r l?
 

pwhole

Well-known member
I was brought up a catholic in Rotherham in the 1970s, and was regularly set upon by the lads from the local C of E school at the end of my road on my way home - they used to daub 'IRA' on my uniform with chalk, so it wouldn't come off, throw stones, whack me with rulers, etc. All of us got that treatment. A bit like muslim kids can be set upon now for events unconnected with their beliefs (or their parent's beliefs, more accurately). I used to be furious about this, as I didn't even believe in (any) 'god', so it was extremely irritating to be attacked for two separate issues, neither of which I actually supported, but at 14, what do you do? Apart from determinedly going fishing on Silver Jubilee day instead of the stupid robotic street party, and secretly buying 'God Save the Queen' and helping it get to No.1!

Mainly I started going to the library on my way home, which delayed my arrival, and so missing a beating, but it also got me stuck into research and study, which seriously paid off in later life, unlike the dimwits who used to beat me up. But I certainly understood how prejudice worked, and gradually realised that if you lived in NI and got this sort of shit on a daily basis, it would be much easier to decide to join one of the organizations. I went on a fishing holiday in Enniskillen in 1978 with my mate and his dad, who was from there, and I actually had my rod bag turned out on a country lane by British soldiers, who were astonished to hear a Yorkshire accent. There'd been a shooting a few miles away, and there were army choppers hanging over us while we were fishing. Didn't get a bite that day.

I also attended church functions where the old Irish guys would get pissed and start singing 'illegal' resistance songs, and I clearly remember the local priest running about shutting all the windows and doors in case anyone outside heard what they were singing, and called the cops. Seriously. There are many 'guilty' people on both sides of that particular issue, but no doubt every one of them could 'justify' their personal contribution.

"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves". Robert Anton Wilson.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Alex said:
Why the heck is the BBC making such a big deal out of this ex-terrorist? They make it sound like the queen died or something. He probably reformed as he felt so guilty for what he had done? No he was afraid of being arrested and this was his only way out. It makes me sick how BBC make him sound like some sort of hero. His death should just be mentioned in passing only.

What else do you honestly expect from the BBC?

Blatant Bias Corporation
:LOL:
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Pegasus said:
Oceanrower said:
Clearly there's a misunderstanding. I thought this was the @Idle chat' part of the forum so nothing to do with caving.

'Idle Chat - General chat about anything' so if forum members want to chat about Martin McGuinness in this section, please feel free to do so.  I doubt many cavers, when they get together chat exclusively about caving and nothing else, hence Idle Chat on the forum.  Cheers, Pegasus

Hello Jane

I have been chewing this over for a while.

Thing is, we all have an interest in going underground, this is what unites us. We also all have our politics, opinions on religions, global warming and whatever. These are subjects that divide us.

Over on aditnow we keep all this off the site, plus mineral collecting. This one will is worse than all the others put together.
I mean, if you look at how some of the threads have gone on stuff like this its provoked the usual 'popcorn' joke, plus usually a P take over on AN. "UKC at it again"

AN has a 'pub' section, but we still leave some stuff out.

I dont know.

I do think politics, and that word covers a very wide spectrum, is best left out of some places.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
royfellows said:
I dont think that any clear decision should be taken unless there is a clear mandate from the people. Whichever way the vote goes, if the majority is only by a small margin then a permanent decision should be deferred pending another referendum in say 2 years time.

Roy, bearing in mind that you were an outspoken supporter of leaving the EU and since the margin was small, are you still firmly of the view that there should be a second Brexit referendum?
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Simon Wilson said:
royfellows said:
I dont think that any clear decision should be taken unless there is a clear mandate from the people. Whichever way the vote goes, if the majority is only by a small margin then a permanent decision should be deferred pending another referendum in say 2 years time.

Roy, bearing in mind that you were an outspoken supporter of leaving the EU and since the margin was small, are you still firmly of the view that there should be a second Brexit referendum?

Hello Simon

No I am not. The reason for my thinking is that although the margin to leave was small overall, if one takes Scotland out of the equation its a much stronger result to leave. And Scotland has always been a bit at odds with us.

There has been some opinion polls that suggest that the leave vote is now stronger. About a week or so ago a "Day of Action" to overturn BREXIT was organised outside parliament, only a handful turned up.
Gina Miller opened a website to gather signatures for a turnaround, it ran for 2 months and got less than 10,000, she has now shut it down.
There is a very well advertised 'Stop Bexit' planned for this weekend, be interesting to see how much support it gets.

In general, things have done too far down the pike now anyway to turn back. My opinions have not changed.
 

Oceanrower

Active member
I suspect Simon's was a rhetorical question after your statement that politics should be left off this forum.....
 

droid

Active member
Pwhole's comments remind ne of Hathersage in the 60's....fights between the Catholic primary school kids from the bottom of the village and the Anglican kids from the school at the top.....
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Gina Miller promised that, after the High court's ruling (either way) she would leave the matter alone.

She stated, openly, that she was only interested in the proper process being followed.

Now look where she is .....

This is the problem when (some) minority don't get there own way. They lie, they deceive, they con, they twist, they spin and they distort.

They stop at almost nothing to force the minority view onto the majority.

Some resort to guns and bombs when they can't have what they want - hey presto! We are back on topic.

Notice any similarities going on elsewhere?


Wales voted 50.2% in favour of it's own assembly and 49.8% against.

I voted against and lost.

I dealt with it by accepting the outcome and moving on.

I respected the wishes of the majority.

Seriously, people need to get a grip.

Ian


 
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