Is censorship ever a good thing?

graham

New member
I have been mulling over this since it happened this afternoon. Having just had a conversation with someone who mods various communities on LiveJournal where mods cannot edit posts and where no-one can edit a post after it has been replied to - and who was shocked at what I said, I have decided to post this. It was not an easy decision.

In the thread: Discussion on the post "The effect of changes in liability for Landowners under CROW" someone made a post late this morning. One particular line in that post was noticed by two readers who both, quite quickly, quoted it along with comments.

Three hours later, when I returned to the board, the original line had vanished from the post. Both of the responses to it had also vanished. In no case was there a moderator comment or even a "last edit by ..." line. It was as if none of it had ever been written.

This is censorship. I am aware that this is not my board and I have no say in what rules are in place nor how they are implemented but I feel it important that people do know and understand what is happening.

If the original poster regretted his original statement or how it had been received, then a number of choices were open to him:

To withdraw the statement.

To defend the statement.

To further explain how he felt his words may have been misunderstood.

None of those were done. For the entire exchange to be simply wiped away is censorship of the worst kind. It stifles debate and it allows someone in authority the security of having their errors erased from history. I thought that sort of thing has ceased when the cold war was over.

I do not expect this post to be well-received. So this may be goodbye from me.

It's been fun, some of it, anyway.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Sorry to hear this Graham. I think I know which comments you refer to. they were not offensive. They broke no rules. They were part of an intelligent debate, being conducted in a civilised manner. This sort of thing discourages sensible discussion, and if ever a sensible debate was required it is on the thread in question. Such a great shame.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I forgot to say that I made a conscious decision a while back to never enter into a debate about moderator decisions, having been a mod on a robust message board for a while, so seeing things from the other side, so to speak. But in this one case, I think comment is not only required, but important. I will make no further comment.
 

tony from suffolk

Well-known member
Dwelling as I do on many forums related to my wide range of interests, I've always regarded Caving UK as being the best of them in terms of the intelligence of the posters, and mercifully free from the incessant trolling that appears to be endemic on most.

Sure, there are heated arguments and a smattering of personal insults but these are soon stifled by the majority of good folk on here. Although I don't recall the particular instance of moderating Graham mentions, I have become aware of some supression of what to me seemed perfectly reasonable debate.

Although I disagree with Graham regarding CRoW, nevertheless his posts on this and other subjects are a vital part of this forum and I do urge the moderators to think very carefully about how they handle vigorous discussion. Moderators have a difficult job (I'm one in another place) and you'll never satisfy everyone, but please be careful you don't upset what for many years has been a superlative Forum.
 

Stu

Active member
To answer the post title question, generally no. I guess things such as national security or protecting names of people might go into the yes category.

Didn't read the thread so can't comment. We do seem to get away with quite a bit on here but that said I've come across much worse (football forums spring to mind). If it contravened a rule then that's fair enough. I'd hate to think that comments, posts or statements were being cut unfairly.
 

graham

New member
Ok

I've been monitoring this site since starting the thread. In that time I note that at least three mods have been online, yet no comment has been made here.

I have also just noticed that a post I made yesterday that was mildly critical of a post by someone who is a mod has also vanished without trace.

The shape of things to come?
 

crickleymal

New member
Totally agree. I didn't see the original posts (having got bored of the whole CROW thing) but unless something is blatantly offensive or excessively sweary then it shouldn't be removed. And if the mods can't take a bit of criticism then they shouldn't be doing the job.
 

NigR

New member
Graham,
You might be interested to know that I recently sent a PM to one of the new site owners complaining about (what I regarded as) excessive and unfair moderation. This was on 14 October and I have yet to receive an acknowledgment or reply, all very disappointing.

Peter,
Is it not true that it is not so long since you were publically exhorting the moderators to prune certain threads of particular comments that you regarded as offensive and/or off-topic? You can't have it both ways!

graham said:
I do not expect this post to be well-received. So this may be goodbye from me.

Note to Mods:
I fully support Graham's stance in exposing this so (if you do indeed decide to ban him for having the temerity to criticise you) please ban me as well.




 

graham

New member
Thank you Nig. We have our differences about many things, but it is good to see that there are some areas where we can agree.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
The OP has somewhat exaggerated the moderation in question.

The moderation log for this forum shows that the same phrase was deleted from two posts this morning in the topic, "The effect of changes in liability for landowners under CRoW".  The phrase was not of value other than trying to bait the previous poster who was trying hard to be informative and answer questions.  The same poster had been baited several times over the last few days and fortunately had so far not risen to the bait, but the intention of the phrase used was clear.

Analysis has shown that this sort of baiting eventually leads to frustration and causes the bickering and muck slinging which inevitably gets a topic locked.

Our market research at Hidden Earth and elsewhere showed that this sort of baiting, bullying and bickering was the biggest turn off to new and existing members engaging with the forum.  Quite frankly many people were sick of it and one or two names were mentioned repeatedly as being the cause of this.

A simple derogatory phrase was moderated.  No contribution of any value was removed.  This is not censorship, this is careful moderating to protect the integrity of the site. 
 

droid

Active member
Maybe the solution then is to inform the miscreant poster of the offence they have committed, either on the forum (so that others might learn) or by PM?

Rather better than the guessing game we have here: 'what was wrong?'.

Any news on the sensitive Mod Graham refers to above?

On a different note: nice to see protagonists can agree about something. It indicates that differences in opinion over one subject needn't make people mortal enemies. This is how it should be.
 

Alex

Well-known member
I don't agree with much of what Graham has to say and will even argue against him, I can think of one point. But we still live in an almost free country and even I have to agree with Graham a bit. Not sure who said it but: "I don't agree a word, but I will defend his right to say it."

On the other hand, needless bickering is not a good thing either, perhaps its down to all of us to try and get on just a little better so that more extreme moderation is not required.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
droid said:
Maybe the solution then is to inform the miscreant poster of the offence they have committed, either on the forum (so that others might learn) or by PM?

Rather better than the guessing game we have here: 'what was wrong?'.

The poster was informed that "an uncalled for disparaging comment had been removed".

I can only assume that the OP was trying to make something of this that it wasn't.

Peter Burgess said:
Sorry to hear this Graham. I think I know which comments you refer to. they were not offensive. They broke no rules. They were part of an intelligent debate, being conducted in a civilised manner. This sort of thing discourages sensible discussion, and if ever a sensible debate was required it is on the thread in question. Such a great shame.

Do you stand by this statement?
 

bograt

Active member
But I tend to agree with Graham (I never thought I'd say that!), any deletion should be informed about and we should know about the reason and the poster (no need to show the post)

Something like; (-----) post by (----) has been deleted because (-----) by ------- (moderator)

This will offer the deletee the option of revising the post in an acceptable fashion.

To do it anonymously without explanation is, indeed, censorship of the worst kind.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Badlad said:
droid said:
Maybe the solution then is to inform the miscreant poster of the offence they have committed, either on the forum (so that others might learn) or by PM?

Rather better than the guessing game we have here: 'what was wrong?'.

The poster was informed that "an uncalled for disparaging comment had been removed".

I can only assume that the OP was trying to make something of this that it wasn't.

Peter Burgess said:
Sorry to hear this Graham. I think I know which comments you refer to. they were not offensive. They broke no rules. They were part of an intelligent debate, being conducted in a civilised manner. This sort of thing discourages sensible discussion, and if ever a sensible debate was required it is on the thread in question. Such a great shame.

Do you stand by this statement?
See my (hopefully welcome) message to you, please. Please respect my desire not to discuss this here, as I stated earlier.
 
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