At regional council meetings how does your club representative get the information they need in order to represent the views of your club's members? Do they use online methods to get votes/polls, send out info in the newsletter, or have a tickbox sheet of options on a noticeboard in the hut? I'm intrigued to find out how the club reps know what their club members' wishes are.

Or do you follow the example of your local Member of Parliament?

From a (former) student's perspective, it really depends on the issue. At CHECC delegates meetings, there are issues for which I solicited opinions from the club and received crickets in return. In these instances, I went with what I felt was best for the club. If (and when) I received opinions from club members I would relay those to the Council. Of course, being at uni means it's a lot easier to get everyone together to chat.

Neither of my club committees consulted the members about the recent CRoW vote so I guess they don't do 'ask the members'.

The CRoW topic was different though since BCA wrote to all members and organised an amazing logistical postal ballot, thus getting pretty close to perfection in terms of caving democracy.

As a member of many clubs I do not recall specifically being invited for any view on any topic(s),.. ever. [apologies if my memory is wrong and I've overlooked something] - and those that know me will surely be aware that I do have the occasional viewpoint to air ;-) - so my supposition/hunch is that reps routinely offer up their own viewpoint as though it is that of the club they are representing. Unless anyone can vouch otherwise it seems reasonable to suppose this is often the case.

I have no problem with this as it seems eminently pragmatic. It would be useful to have this clarified though, as it will perhaps be very relevant if I am to represent an organisation and have the precedented (traditional?) fallback option of offering up my viewpoint as though it is that of the people on whose behalf I am supposedly lobbying.

I emailed all members for view on CRoW. Most ignored it. Those few that responded (hardly anyone) were evenly split. So the WCMS view passed to Cambrian CC was that WCMS could not express a view one way or the other. Clubs were asked by CCC to send views to them so that in turn the CCC position could be formulated. This was more to do with formulating the CCC stance rather than anything to do with the poll.

Regarding the recent Cambrian AGM, I asked the WCMS committee whether they were happy for me to use my own judgement on any matter being voted on, and this was agreed. I imagine if I had done something outrageous they would ask for someone else to be the rep.

I was once told that a delegate receives instruction from the body they are representing, a representative is trusted to make decisions for the best of the body.

If you want to let your rep know your opinion in advance then you need to seek them out, a delegate will be expecting to be told how to vote on issues.

With regard to cncc meetings, my elected rep brings attention to the agenda and asks for opinions, which is rarely a long thread on the club forum.

ianball11 said:

I was once told that a delegate receives instruction from the body they are representing, a representative is trusted to make decisions for the best of the body.

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Nicely summarised - thank you IB11

Having only very recently starting attending CNCC meetings on behalf of our club, I like to keep things simple. When the agenda is put up on the website I email it to my club and ask them to read it and pass on any queries within x time frame. I also usually summarise a few key items that I think are of specific interest. I usually try and remind folks at the meetings as well that I need feedback.

With the recent CNCC AGN I also basically told them how I intended to vote on what I saw were main issues and gave my reasons. I asked that if anyone disagrees that they should let me know. This would then start a discussion. Most responded saying they agreed and had no issues. One day there will be and things will get more complex and I would request a meeting with those interested after a trip or in the pub if a normal club meeting wasn't scheduled in time. .

Good topic to discuss.

I think most cavers just want to go caving and have fun.  They do not normally want to get involved in national or regional caving politics.  Clubs are often just happy to have someone willing to attend meetings on their behalf and sometimes there is a complacency where the club just lets the representative do their own thing.  This can be dangerous and there are a number of examples where club reps have proposed their own views and not reflected the views of their club members.

One good example that springs to mind was at the CNCC AGM just over a year ago.  The AGM agenda stated that the Bradford Pothole Club (rep) had proposed a controversial motion and the Gritstone Club (rep) had seconded it and the meeting was being asked to vote on it.  When the two clubs attention was drawn to this they both made public statements withdrawing their support for the motion.  The Chairman of the BPC made a statement to that effect on this forum.  The club reps had certainly not represented the view of the clubs in this case.  A lesson was learnt and the clubs took steps to make sure it did not happen again. 

However, if it hadn't been such a controversial motion, questions would not have been asked, and like many before it, motions would have been passed which really didn't have the support of the club.

The big question for me is - do the dozen or so committee members of our regional councils really represent the views of the thousands of cavers who actually go caving in the area?

From my limited experience of the CNCC Badlad - they certainly seem to care about caving and cavers. There will always be aspects that they might not be focussing on as much as some want perhaps. But they aren't psychic; the best way to make sure they are representing your views is to show up (nice bunch and theres cheap tea, coffee and biscuits!) or get your club rep to raise something.

Our club reapplied for membership after many years where we thought we were still members but apparently weren't. After the whole CROW thing and loads of stuff about bolting we decided if we wanted to make sure we had a say in Northern caving then we best join.

Yes, some of the meetings go on and points get laboured but.... Hellifield ain't far from the caves for afterwards.

Badlad said:

The big question for me is - do the dozen or so committee members of our regional councils really represent the views of the thousands of cavers who actually go caving in the area?

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If people are not happy with how they are represented, then they can, surely make their views known. And not simply by moaning in the pub.

graham said:

Badlad said:

The big question for me is - do the dozen or so committee members of our regional councils really represent the views of the thousands of cavers who actually go caving in the area?

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If people are not happy with how they are represented, then they can, surely make their views known. And not simply by moaning in the pub.

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That's a valid point, but it assumes (a) the cavers actually know what the committees are discussing, and (b) they actually care enough to leave the pub and go to a meeting. People like to talk, but rarely do they act.

(or, to be more fair, they often do not know how to act. When/where are these meetings? Who's the rep? etc)

Filter

For the CNCC anyway the website gives all the 2015 meeting dates, location and the proposed agenda is usually up a month or so before the meeting.

Our club doesn't have a specific rep and I don't think you need one.  At the AGM when you can vote you bring a letter from a club official stating you are the voting rep.  For normal committee meetings where clubs can't vote, then anyone can turn up if they are interested as I understand it.

I am assuming most other regional bodies are the same.

Matt

graham said:

Badlad said:

The big question for me is - do the dozen or so committee members of our regional councils really represent the views of the thousands of cavers who actually go caving in the area?

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If people are not happy with how they are represented, then they can, surely make their views known. And not simply by moaning in the pub.

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But what if they are being misrepresented without their knowledge?

The is one large caving club in particular whose rep, I have been told, never consults the members of the club on CNCC matters and who has consistently voted in a way which in my opinion is reactionary and would be the opposite of the views of the club members. This is one way in which the democracy of the CNCC fails but there are other difficult problems.

Simon - that would be a failure within the club not within CNCC. How many UN reps reflect the true views of the populations of their countries? The UN can't resolve the democratic shortcomings of it's members, and Regional Bodies normally have clauses that stop them getting involved in the internal affairs of the member organisations. Its down to the club to sort out it's own affairs. If the club members don't like it they can find a new rep or find another club. They have the freedom to do either if they set their minds to it.

When I say "the democracy of the CNCC" I mean the whole democratic structure which I have talked about at great length before.

Peter Burgess said:

Simon - that would be a failure within the club not within CNCC. How many UN reps reflect the true views of the populations of their countries? The UN can't resolve the democratic shortcomings of it's members, and Regional Bodies normally have clauses that stop them getting involved in the internal affairs of the member organisations. Its down to the club to sort out it's own affairs. If the club members don't like it they can find a new rep or find another club. They have the freedom to do either if they set their minds to it.

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But what if they are being misrepresented without their knowledge?

If the meeting have a full record of discussions then there should be a proper level of transparency. That would be the responsibility of the Council.

Peter Burgess said:

If the meeting have a full record of discussions then there should be a proper level of transparency. That would be the responsibility of the Council.

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Indeed, and the CNCC have recently made a change to the procedure for producing the minutes for that purpose. You can see it under AOB in the minutes of the 2015 AGM here: http://www.cncc.org.uk/minutes/