Me and  my mate have been doing the odd evening trip recently. What differed from the norm this week was that we had a novice with us.

Now, this novice has done a bit of caving, but their SRT experience is very limited. Basically they'd never had to deal with a deviation or rebelay. I'd shown the novice how to deal with these the evening before and they appeared to understand what they needed to do.

So, taking into account the novices level of experience, I decided that we should go and do Knotlow. (A bad choice as it turned out)

The first pitch was easy as it's just a straight drop. The second pitch has an easy deviation and it's right at the top of the pitch so it's easy to give advice. No problem there either.

But, I'd forgotten how awkward the waterfall pitch is and how noisy it can be. The inevitable happened, i.e. the novice had a bit of a epic. Advice couldn't be heard above the noise of the water and it was blatantly obvious that the novice was not a happy bunny. They eventually managed to get down (with help) and back up (with help), but they expended enough engery to light Monyash for a week in the process.

I'm feeling a bit guilty, as I overestimated their ability, and in hindsight I could have rigged the pitch slightly differently to make getting on an off the traverse and onto the pitch a fair bit less strenuous. I hope that the experience doesn't put them off.

I think all three of us learned a bit of a lesson last night. Probably me more than anybody.

Glad it turned out ok.
I try to remember to take a spare rope in such circumstances so that help can be given if necessary.

Epics as long as they turn out ok typically build solid experience. The key is to 'get back on the bike' and rebuild confidence and learn the valuable lessons. As you mentioned the leader often learns valuable things as well. Glad it turned out ok

Easy pitch to have an epic on, with the water making such a racket and quite a challenging traverse, have to admit to having made the same mistake myself!

I've rigged that pitch very badly before, with a Y hang right across the shaft that you had to down prussik down one side and then lower yourself onto the actual Y hang.

Needless to say I've been back with AL since and used his better rigging to get out (which was much nicer and used less rope).
He'd rigged a Y hang on the same wall as the traverse and deviated it to the wall behind. (he'd also made the traverse line much looser, which made it nicer).

That pitch has a lot of 'history'. I remember helping to drag up an inexperienced, poorly kitted caver back in the late 1980s.

I think that one and Giants/Garlands Pot are top of the pops for call outs, at least at one time.

alastairgott said:

I've rigged that pitch very badly before, with a Y hang right across the shaft that you had to down prussik down one side and then lower yourself onto the actual Y hang.

Needless to say I've been back with AL since and used his better rigging to get out (which was much nicer and used less rope).
He'd rigged a Y hang on the same wall as the traverse and deviated it to the wall behind. (he'd also made the traverse line much looser, which made it nicer).

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I pretty much did the same as you by the sound of it, apart from having to prussik down to the Y-hang. Next time there will be more slack on the traverse line so you can get onto the Y-hang more easily. I may even try AL's method with the deviation.

I'm afraid I expected too much of the novice. Probably because I know how capable she is at other activities. Being petite and not having the arm length that I had didn't help.

Rigging a Y from the last 2 anchors of the traverse and a deviation on the opposite wall makes it so much easier.
Traverse lines should not be loose.

Chocolate fireguard said:

Rigging a Y from the last 2 anchors of the traverse and a deviation on the opposite wall makes it so much easier.
Traverse lines should not be loose.

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Maybe looser than i had it when rigging though?
I could move the first karabiner and make the last one move through the same angle.

Anyway, yes, try the y hang+ devi next time.

I, a simple small in stature idiot, would agree with the mighty Zomjon.
however; using the 'traverse' as a traverse. rather than a free hang move does alter the 'mindset' of a novice i'd guess.
I first did t' traverse following a guide.
using nowt bar a krab' a munter hitch. an ascension ,croll.and cow tails.safe as!
the y hang isn't needed. if water is low. a great swing for the dev' is a good lesson in finding gear
bought a stop really soon after, and one for each son.
We updated my gear therafter     
O.G.

alastairgott said:

Maybe looser than i had it when rigging though?
I could move the first karabiner and make the last one move through the same angle.

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Sounds about right to me.

owd git said:

the y hang isn't needed. if water is low. a great swing for the dev' is a good lesson in finding gear

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I think that's the bottom deviation.
Nowadays I go back out if there's enough water to make finding that one necessary!
Sometimes I do it for fun in normal/low water conditions. You can bridge between the walls on the way down to keep dryish, and a swing when trying to rig it still gives the option of carrying on down, but getting wet.
In high water conditions a novice taking that swing when the deviation is already rigged could end very badly.

Chocolate fireguard said:

In high water conditions a novice taking that swing when the deviation is already rigged could end very badly.

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That's why I rigged the lowest and furthest out P-bolt deviation as a rebelay. The rope rubs a bit below the bolt (a few krabs on it would help) but it avoided the potential swing into the waterfall.

If you count the right hand wall bolt as a deviation (Y-hang on the last two of the left hand traverse) there are three deviations altogether. There's one at -1 to -2 metres on the left hand wall to help avoiding really high water, and there's the one almost at the bottom of the pitch, a long way forward.

I always think failure of this last one (rigged as a deviation or as a rebelay) would result in a spectacular soaking (at best). It probably ought to be a pair of bolts.

My ideal scenario for this pitch would be a continuation of the Waterfall pitch traverse line, right across to Meccano Passage. Apart from adding a whole new dimension to the various Knotlow trips, it would give loads of choice for where to rig your Y-hang for a dry downward trip into the further bits of the mine.

In my dreams ....

al said:

If you count the right hand wall bolt as a deviation (Y-hang on the last two of the left hand traverse) there are three deviations altogether. There's one at -1 to -2 metres on the left hand wall to help avoiding really high water, and there's the one almost at the bottom of the pitch, a long way forward.

I always think failure of this last one (rigged as a deviation or as a rebelay) would result in a spectacular soaking (at best). It probably ought to be a pair of bolts.

My ideal scenario for this pitch would be a continuation of the Waterfall pitch traverse line, right across to Meccano Passage. Apart from adding a whole new dimension to the various Knotlow trips, it would give loads of choice for where to rig your Y-hang for a dry downward trip into the further bits of the mine.

In my dreams ....

Click to expand...

Perhaps some nice DCA bolt installer could oblige?

Forgot to mention that there's no in-situ tat on the deviation on the second pitch. It anyone's intending to do Knotlow you need to take your own, which is a good habit to get into.