Is there a history of saltpeter mining in UK caves? I've spent the last week surveying in two caves which contained vat casts from 1860s mining. Many cavers do not seem to know what these casts are, and do not recognize mining artifacts when they see them. This leads to a lot of casts being trampled on, and a few days ago I found a beautiful old wooden water pipe had been used as a climbing aid. Are there any documents or articles available to cavers to help them identify and care for such artifacts?

Yes.

droid said:

Yes.

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I'll have a good search then. Though the below post suggests that maybe there's not much to be found in British literature?

Saltpetre (potassium nitrate) occurs in warm but not overly humid conditions (excessive dampness would wash it away) where there is a considerable amount of nitrogenous organic matter (e.g. urine, excrement), the saltpetre growing as crystals on the surface of the organic material and adjacent rock. It takes some yeras to grow to a commercial volume, hence particularly rich sources (caves with plentiful bat guano, urine-saturated earth floors of privies, stables, etc) were periodically scraped clean of crystals every few years. Occurrences of saltpetre in UK caves must be very rare on account of the low levels of organic matter and the usually damp conditions. Caves that are (or, rather, were) sources of saltpetre are mostly confined to radically different climates to the UK. 

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There's plenty on the conservation/preservation of mining artifacts in the British literature.

That was what I meant.

Google PDMHS and NAHMO

Or search on here (probably the best start-off)

Or search on here (probably the best start-off)

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Tried that already, nothing much to be found. Except the above quote.
I'm talking specifically about saltpeter artifacts in natural caves, as these are at great risk of being unanticipated and unrecognized, unlike artifacts in mines, which are often the focus of the trip.

The only thing you can do is think what will others see when they get there? Does it need signposting or cordoning off or removing to a museum? Of course trying to educate people is commendable, but you'll never get to everyone.

Presumably some of the Tennessee or West Virginia show caves have info on such artifacts.

Mike

As far as I am aware saltpetre  does not exist in UK caves.  No idea why.  I have explored many bat caves and mines but  have never found saltpetre.

A lot of people just see piles of dirt and some old wood, so they don't really pay any attention. I think that cordoning of artifacts might be appropriate in some cases, though I've never seen it done in a wild cave. Even this might be risky, as it might encourage ignorant treasure hunters to demolish things.

In Tennessee, I have seen many caves with saltpeter vats and casts, and some with water pipes, torches, mixing paddles, ladders, and inscriptions associated with mining. And in Virginia I have found saltpeter operations outside of their documented range. I don't know how best to protect them, but I would like to see NSS publish something to make cavers at least more aware. I would try to write something myself, but I don't know a whole lot about the subject yet. So I wondered if someone else had already written some things that could be useful. I guess a lot depends on simple common sense and careful observation.

Kenilworth said:

I don't know how best to protect them, but I would like to see NSS publish something to make cavers at least more aware.

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Hmm, turns out there might be a use for a national caving organisation after all.......

So long as they have a membership, they ought to teach it something (curiously, I, a non-member, am the one proposing this useful instruction).

There was a program on the BBC the other day, saying that the English in the mid-17th century didn't use caves.

Instead we employed "saltpeter men" to collect slurry heaps and, by order of the King, they had the power to dig the floors of dovecotes, stables, barns, cellars and private houses to try to reclaim saltpeter from the waste that would be mixed into the dirt floots. There's even a story of them digging up the floors of churches where church-goers had been caught short during long sermons...

Later in the 17th century, the expanding empire meant that ready supplies of saltpeter could be obtained in the colonies - and the saltpeter men were abolished (which I assume would also include the American colonies).

Interesting stuff. I've read of barn floors being dug, and of urine being collected and poured over beds of soil.
It seems like most of the saltpeter mined from caves in the US was connected with Civil War needs, but not all. I wonder which are the oldest sp workings still identifiable?

RichardB1983 said:

There's even a story of them digging up the floors of churches where church-goers had been caught short during long sermons...

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That's not a story - churches used to spread straw or rushes (hence the rush-bearing ceremonies that still take place in the North-west) on their floors over winter and yes, during lengthy sermons the parishoners would relieve themselves indoors. When the church was "mucked out" in spring then saltpetre could be extracted - I've seen crystalline deposits form on the floor of our own stables in corners where the soiled straw has sat for a while.

Regarding dealing with artefacts and mining archaeology, NAMHO have two guides available, this one on artefacts (http://www.namho.org/guidelines_rem.php) and this one on recording (http://www.namho.org/guidelines_ruam.php) though hopefully later this year, John Barnatt's major work on underground mining archaeology will be published. Wherever possible, timber artefacts should be left underground as conserving them without to means to get them professionally done with PEG is a real headache. I speak from experience there, having been given a windlass barrel found during modern fluorspar mining....

rhychydwr1 said:

As far as I am aware saltpetre  does not exist in UK caves.  No idea why.  I have explored many bat caves and mines but  have never found saltpetre.

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Interestingly, "Calcium Nitrate" (as opposed to Potassium Nitrate) is also called Saltpeter(petre) by Wikipedia and that is the stuff we find in caves.

Obviously, Wikipedia is an authority on the matter.



Ian

Ian Adams said:

rhychydwr1 said:

As far as I am aware saltpetre  does not exist in UK caves.  No idea why.  I have explored many bat caves and mines but  have never found saltpetre.

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Interestingly, "Calcium Nitrate" (as opposed to Potassium Nitrate) is also called Saltpeter(petre) by Wikipedia and that is the stuff we find in caves.

Obviously, Wikipedia is an authority on the matter.



Ian

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Saltpetre is a generic term for several "nitrate salts"
As calcium nitrate is very soluble it isn't found in caves that are very wet.
I think most British caves fall into the "wet" category so I don't believe any worthwhile deposits occur here. Certainly I am unaware of any extraction from UK caves so I assume our climate precludes it.

Calcium nitrate is also the Saltpetre that was extracted in the US caves.
Calcium nitrate is very soluble so is only to be found in dry caves.
The calcium nitrate was leached from the cave soil in vats, collected and then taken from the caves to be processed.
The first stage was to concentrate the solution using evaporation, generally using wood fires.
The concentrate was then reacted with potash (potassium carbonate, from the ashes of the wood fires used in the evaporation process). The calcium would be precipitated as calcium carbonate and would be replaced by the potassium in the solution to make potassium nitrate. The subsequent solution would be further "dried" by evaporation and the saltpetre crystals would remain.
The process is well documented and was primarily used to produce saltpetre for gunpowder, when the main source was denied.  During the war between America and the UK (1812), the UK controlled the world's supply of Saltpetre, which was produced in one of our colonies (India). The UK blockaded the US ports, so a source of home produced Saltpetre was needed by America. Later during the American Civil War (1861 to 1865) the North blockaded the Confederates and they had to make their own gunpowder in the same way.

There are several good books produced by Angelo I George* as well as specific books about the main Saltpetre caves in the US, predominantly Mammoth Cave (Ky), Great Saltpetre Cave (Ky), Big Bone Cave** (Tn) and Wyandotte Caves (In), although many more caves were used.

*
Mamoth Cave Saltpeter Works, Angelo I. George - ISBN 0971303827
The Saltpeter Empires, Angelo I. George - ISBN  0971303800
**
Big Bone Cave, Larry E. Mathews ISBN 9781879961241

Cool, thanks Les.

Here is the Wiki link;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitrate

What's "moonmilk" then ?



Ian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonmilk

LOL, I can't believe I didn't think to Wiki it ... always thought it was a "poetic" term used to describe a chemical compound.

(Which I guess it is)



Ian

Ian Adams said:

LOL, I can't believe I didn't think to Wiki it ... always thought it was a "poetic" term used to describe a chemical compound.

(Which I guess it is)



Ian

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Have to admit, I didn't expect an article to pop up, Ian....

Interesting article from 1912:
https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0523/report.pdf