What caves on access land are completely barred?

Aubrey

Aubrey

Member
Since the CroW debate started the access to some caves has changed to our (cavers) advantage.
I realise some people are still unhappy with permit systems and other forms of restricted access but I am trying to find out how many caves on access land are completely closed to the extent that no one is allowed access at any time.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Many but this is a very problematical subject. PLEASE do not press this issue because no good will come of it. If you want to know more PM me with a more specific question.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I'm struggling to think of many. One very small one in the Greenhow area springs to mind - and also an obscure one in Cavedale (Castelton). But both of these are special cases and the current situations have been arrived at in consultation with leading cavers anyway. (I was also tempted to mention Joint Hole in Chapel-le-Dale but the current hiatus is expected to be temporary.)

I thought almost all of our cave systems have at least some form of access, thanks to the kindness of so many landowners / tenants.

It'll be interesting to learn why you're asking this question (assuming you can let us know, once you've got the required information?).
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Ah - Simon - my post crossed with yours. I just saw your request not to "press this subject". Can't think why - but if I'd seen that first I might have PM'd you before posting.

I was going to try and think of any more examples for Aubrey but if you have a good reason for not doing then send a separate PM.
 
NewStuff

NewStuff

New member
Simon Wilson said:
Many but this is a very problematical subject. PLEASE do not press this issue because no good will come of it. If you want to know more PM me with a more specific question.
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Without naming names, why is it many, and why is it going to be problematic if the issue is pressed? I am genuinely interested in what sort odf unsurmountable issue would cause a loss of access to many caves on access land.

Please don't do as other members do, and say something along the lines of "it just is, deal with it", as doing so *will* cause problems.
 
David Rose

David Rose

Active member
This is a problematic subject because in certain areas, and I am being totally non-specific, caves on CROW land are "officially" closed, but local cavers have managed to negotiate access for themselves on condition of secrecy. I quite understand why they might do this, but it means their discoveries tend not to be publicised, and of course most cavers cannot ever get the chance to explore them. I hope one day such agreements will be unnecessary, because, as regular forum readers will know, I Have a Dream...

Meanwhile: how wonderful to get back to the subject of CROW after the upheavals of the past week. Is this a sign of returning normality? Of course, for CROW campaigners, this is a period of frustrating hiatus. Not much point in trying to lobby the government when there doesn't appear to be one.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Pitlamp said:
I'm struggling to think of many. One very small one in the Greenhow area springs to mind -
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That is disingenuous in the extreme.

What do you mean by "completely barred". There are many caves that have been filled in. Is that what you mean? There are many others that you will never get permission for but which can go down secretly so they aren't completely barred. How many caves? That is a complicated question and the best way of answering it is that there is about two hundred square miles of karst which is CRoW land for which, according to some, there is no official access. David is absolutely correct and of course many of us assume we have official access under the CRoW Act and are caving on that basis with a good measure of diplomatic discretion.
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
about two hundred square miles of karst which is CRoW land for which according to some, there is no official access.
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Okay you have got me intrigued, are you saying there is a whole area that is underexplored or not documented because its not allowed, are there many secret caves out there then? Intriguing.

Is this couple hundred square miles one area or a combination of many places (I assume N wales takes up a lot of this)? Is the size accounting for the underground cave sizes or purely the surface size.

 
J

jasonbirder

Member
I and am sure many cavers can think of a number of large, important Caving Systems with no Official Access...
Obviously under CRoW there are no restrictions on any person Caver or not walking to those entrances dressed however they like carrying whatever they like...
So why the Oh no!!! Don't name them?
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Simon - you've got me somewhat confused; you suggested I'm disingenuous but my reply was given purely in the spirit of helpfulness - it wasn't "insincere" or deliberately misleading. I'm just not like that.

You then go on to ask what is meant by "completely barred" - but I don't recall using that expression, so I'm at a loss to answer that question.

Furthermore, you asked us not to discuss this subject (giving no real reason for that request) but you've contributed more posts than anyone else so far, asking further questions. I don't know whether I'm supposed to attempt to amplify on my thoughts to try to help Aubrey, or just go away and do something else.

Whatever happened to all the fun in caving?
 
M

mikem

Well-known member
There are caves on access land that the owners won't currently give permission to, but AFAIK none of them are locked. There are others that cavers have found but not advertised as they don't want to aggravate the landowners (or tenants). Discussing them on a public forum ain't going to improve either situation...

Are there any that have been blocked & there currrently isn't any hope of access being regained, as you're pretty safe discusssing them (unless there's another cave on their land which might be a goer!)

Mike
 
NewStuff

NewStuff

New member
AFAIK, unless it is 'excepted land', then they can't deny access. Even DEFRA say it's fine. Can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing, or is it just people playing silly buggers?

mikem said:
There are caves on access land that the owners won't currently give permission to, but AFAIK none of them are locked. There are others that cavers have found but not advertised as they don't want to aggravate the landowners (or tenants). Discussing them on a public forum ain't going to improve either situation...

Are there any that have been blocked & there currrently isn't any hope of access being regained, as you're pretty safe discusssing them (unless there's another cave on their land which might be a goer!)

Mike
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I

ianball11

Active member
I don't see why landowners should be upset by caves on their land that they have decide to deny access,  to being discussed on a public forum?  They won't have taken that decision lightly and will be able to justify their choices, so it's probably a good thing as the discussion will make the readers aware of the no access status.
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
ianball11 said:
I don't see why landowners should be upset by caves on their land that they have decide to deny access,  to being discussed on a public forum?  They won't have taken that decision lightly and will be able to justify their choices, so it's probably a good thing as the discussion will make the readers aware of the no access status.
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(y) (y) Good point Ian.
 
Dave Tyson

Dave Tyson

Member
Landowners change and sometimes their attitudes change so I don't see a problem if a list of sites were published. For one thing it would serve as a warning to beware - a lot of cavers wander around on access land and if they spot a something of interest will have a 'poke around' - this could seriously piss off the landowner if they were observed and the landowner was anti-caving...

Private lists and access agreements are divisive and should have no place in modern caving. It's a throwback to the days when clubs had their own patches and caves/mine that they jealously guarded lest others gained access. This situation still exists in North Wales. There is no parallel in other outdoor activities - you don't see climbers keeping areas of crags secret from other climbing groups!

Dave
 
M

mikem

Well-known member
Crags are quite difficult to hide  ;)

They can deny access as caves aren't currently included in CRoW legislation.

It's the ones where discussions are taking place or landowners are only happy for those who have arranged access to enter that will cause problems if advertised. As I said before, caves with outright bans - no problem.

There is also a potential difference between naturally open & dug passages - legally mines have to be safeguarded from public access.

Mike
 
S

Smiley Alan

New member
Dave Tyson said:
Private lists and access agreements are divisive and should have no place in modern caving. It's a throwback to the days when clubs had their own patches and caves/mine that they jealously guarded lest others gained access.
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are u  saying that clubs are divisiive and should  have no place in modern caving ??
 
andrewmcleod

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Smiley Alan said:
are u  saying that clubs are divisiive and should  have no place in modern caving ??
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I read as 'private lists and _private_ access agreements', as in ways in which access is impossible for those outside of a certain not-easily-accessible group. It is easy to join the BCA. It is easy to join a caving club (although I still feel individual BCA members should be treated no worse than members of a BCA club in general).
 
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