Hi,
Just wondering what type of Insurance most people have for caving in the UK.
In the past I have only had PI insurance which I have always been happy with. I am now trying to get new PI insurance and finding it very difficult to get PI caving insurance (except for trips abroad) without a package of other insurance. Can anyone give me any advice on suitable sources of PI insurance (preferably not through BCA) and if they come as part of other packages do you feel the other parts of the package are worthwhile/ value for money.
Many thanks
Bom

Bouncing Bom said:

Hi,
Just wondering what type of Insurance most people have for caving in the UK.
In the past I have only had PI insurance which I have always been happy with. I am now trying to get new PI insurance and finding it very difficult to get PI caving insurance (except for trips abroad) without a package of other insurance. Can anyone give me any advice on suitable sources of PI insurance (preferably not through BCA) and if they come as part of other packages do you feel the other parts of the package are worthwhile/ value for money.
Many thanks
Bom

Click to expand...

Just wondering why "preferably not through BCA", as to me, if you want insurance for caving in the UK, it's the obvious solution?

Cheers,

Glenn

Bouncing Bom said:

Just wondering what type of Insurance most people have for caving in the UK.

Click to expand...

The answer to that part has to be Third-Party Liability insurance through BCA membership.

Maybe I'm being stupid, but I don't know what you mean by PI insurance??

Professional Indemnity?

PI is Public Indemnity insurance, it's what damian knows as Third Party insurance, though that is a slightly misleading description as a claim may be made on behalf of a second party, if you think about it.

The BCA Third-Party Liability insurance through BCA membership. Seems to be a no hassle & cost effective policy for most cavers, with no forms to fill and long questionares.
It has been the benchmark for years, unless cavers abuse its issue, I assume it will be the policy of most insured cavers for years to come.
Though I suppose if there were to become a series of claims the insurers would then start to look at the cost/risk to individual cavers.
I am aware of the hard work that many people have put into gaining the system of BCA insurance and can see no reason why you should be looking elseware.
If we were to go down this road we may end up with a system of insurance that starts to penalise cavers that may have health problems, (of which there are many & most of whom are aware of their abilities & responsibilities and are able to cave safely ) and as such prevent them from remaining members of caving clubs.
Or perhaps requiring medicals at extra cost to the caver.
This is my personal opinion & I have no connection with the BCA
Ron

It's also known as Public Liability insurance. This is probably the most accurate description of the three.

cap 'n chris said:

Professional Indemnity?

Click to expand...

I believe that is what the insurance industry uses the abbreviation PI for, might not be what is meant here though....

PI is usually taken to mean Professional Indemnity, yes.

I haven't been an active caver since the days before clubs and individuals had any insurance at all, in most cases; but I would assume that the situation is similar to motorcycle racing or rugby union, where there is effectively only one choice, ie the national governing body, who have managed to assemble a sufficient number of subscribers acting to some sort of recognised system of practice to attract an affordable premium providing usable cover, and a degree of support for anyone who ends up actually making a claim ( so the claim stands a reasonable chance of being paid, rather than ending up as Jarndyce vs Jarndyce ).



one thing I do notice here, is that there used to be a good deal of suspicion, back-biting and mutual exclusion between clubs and individuals who regarded themselves as dominant in particular areas. The Mendips was a particular case in point, with a couple of clubs controlling access to several locked systems and effectively, managing this through a system of word-of-mouth. It was also quite difficult to get printed surveys and route details; there was Northern Caves ( in 4 volumes ) and Caves of Derbyshire ( in 1 volume ) - I still have my 1970s copies of both somewhere about - but that was it, if you wanted information about SW England, Ireland or S Wales you had a problem.

I assume this is because the existence of websites like this one mean that a lot more people have access to the information.

old-timer said:

one thing I do notice here, is that there used to be a good deal of suspicion, back-biting and mutual exclusion between clubs and individuals who regarded themselves as dominant in particular areas. The Mendips was a particular case in point, with a couple of clubs controlling access to several locked systems and effectively, managing this through a system of word-of-mouth. It was also quite difficult to get printed surveys and route details; there was Northern Caves ( in 4 volumes ) and Caves of Derbyshire ( in 1 volume ) - I still have my 1970s copies of both somewhere about - but that was it, if you wanted information about SW England, Ireland or S Wales you had a problem.

Click to expand...

Interestingly, the first issue of the Caves of Mendip by Nick Barrington was in the mid-1950's and by the time that Northern Caves came out in the 1970's the former had reached either its fifth or sixth edition. The first edition of Caves of Wales and the Marches was also in the 50s and Tim Stratford's Welsh guides are broadly contemporaneous with NC. Ireland is a different kettle of fish, but Jack Coleman's Caves of Ireland came out in 1965 and the UBSS first edition Caves of North-west Clare edited by Trat, came out in 1969

So, no, I cannot agree that there was any problem getting this information in the 1970s.

Tony Boycott wrote a (then) comprehensive account of UK cave guides which was published in SpeleoScene in the days when Wig edited it for NCA, 198? that'd be.

I remember using UBSS's book when I went to SW Ireland in about 1980.

I can't claim to be an expert on the history of cave guide publishing, I do however recall that when we wanted a copy of 'Caves of Mendip' in the early 70s we were not successful in finding a copy. No Amazon in those days. I did make a couple of trips to Mendips in 1976-ish, but I was pretty unimpressed with the general atmosphere and some of the 'personalities', compared to the more 'open' Northern and Peaks scene, and didn't return.

old-timer said:

I remember using UBSS's book when I went to SW Ireland in about 1980.

I can't claim to be an expert on the history of cave guide publishing, I do however recall that when we wanted a copy of 'Caves of Mendip' in the early 70s we were not successful in finding a copy. No Amazon in those days. I did make a couple of trips to Mendips in 1976-ish, but I was pretty unimpressed with the general atmosphere and some of the 'personalities', compared to the more 'open' Northern and Peaks scene, and didn't return.

Click to expand...

They probably didn't like you either.

old-timer said:

I remember using UBSS's book when I went to SW Ireland in about 1980.

I can't claim to be an expert on the history of cave guide publishing, I do however recall that when we wanted a copy of 'Caves of Mendip' in the early 70s we were not successful in finding a copy. No Amazon in those days. I did make a couple of trips to Mendips in 1976-ish, but I was pretty unimpressed with the general atmosphere and some of the 'personalities', compared to the more 'open' Northern and Peaks scene, and didn't return.

Click to expand...

Hi old-timer. I have often found cavers in Somerset to be off-hand, and also in Wales, and also in the Dales in the past, and also nowadays. BUT I have also found on far more occasions many more cavers in all regions to be welcoming, helpful and fun. Perhaps you were unlucky, which is a shame if it set your opinion of Mendip cavers for so many years.

I also find the mine exploring community to be on the whole a bit less bothered by parochialism than cavers and more willing to integrate and exchange information. Perhaps I have been lucky and others have had a different experience.

my experience of Mendips, was that it was very cliquey; a small number of clubs seemed to be mostly interested in fighting among themselves over access controls, and 'outside' clubs had little chance in this scene. You don't have to look far to hear things which suggest that this is still the case, to some extent at least.

The Dales scene was rather different because the ( mostly ) open access meant this didn't happen to anything like the same extent.

mine explorers are different people I think, at least the ones who specialise in this rather than cavers who do it occasionally.

It's moving a long way off the original subject of insurance, but I would add, hopefully finally, that it is important firstly to understand that access controls need to be different in different environments, which is why Pen Park Hole is gated, but Pant Mawr Pot isn't and secondly it is worth looking at the relative states of preservation of controlled and uncontrolled caves.

old-timer said:

my experience of Mendips, was that it was very cliquey; a small number of clubs seemed to be mostly interested in fighting among themselves over access controls, and 'outside' clubs had little chance in this scene. You don't have to look far to hear things which suggest that this is still the case, to some extent at least.

The Dales scene was rather different because the ( mostly ) open access meant this didn't happen to anything like the same extent.

mine explorers are different people I think, at least the ones who specialise in this rather than cavers who do it occasionally.

Click to expand...

Did you ever try to get into Timber Hole?
It may or may not be controlled by The Charterhouse Caving Company Limited,
depending on who knows what.

It is on land that CCC Ltd administer under licence from SWT, as you well know. It's a dig, it's not very bloody long. You know exactly which club are digging it and thus who to ask about taking a look.

I'm sure there are digs all over the place that you cannot get a look down except by politely asking the diggers, so quit whining about this one.