So, are those timbers in old mines holding the walls apart stulls or stemples?

Stull Definition
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Stull A framework of timber covered with boards to support rubbish; also, a framework of boards to protect miners from falling stones.
Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia
stull In mining, a heavy timber secured in an excavation, and especially in the stopes. On the stulls rests the lagging, and they together form the support for the attle, or deads, which is left in the mine partly to keep the excavation from falling together and partly to avoid the expense of raising worthless rock.

Stemple Definitions
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Stemple (Mining) A crossbar of wood in a shaft, serving as a step.
Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia
stemple In mining, a small timber used to support the ground by being laid across the stulls, or in other ways: in some mining districts of England nearly the same as lacing or lagging.

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Seems that a stull is a BIG bit and stemple is a SMALL bit, or a step... In Derbyshire the term Stull is hardly ever used in the lead ore fields (as far as I am aware), but the term stemple is used instead. Are they interchangeable terms? What do you lot think? The quoted definitions seem a bit lacking in my understanding of the useage of the terms

I think that like many mining terms there is a lot of local usage.
Different mining districts had local terms in daily use.
Probably both are correct in different parts of the country.

Same thing - regional variations.

The term stull is used in the South West.  It can either mean a single timber (cf stemple) or timber staging.

Never even heard the term Stull. They're stemples lad.

I've been going in mines in the Dales and Peak District for many years - and have read a great deal of published material about them (especially the excellent literature produced by the PDMHS). Brains' post above is the first time I've ever heard that word "stull". In the above two areas at least they're definitely stemples (e.g. Stemple Pot on Penyghent in the Dales, or Peak Cavern's Stemple Highway in the Peak District).

Your post refers to two separate uses of timber; "holding the walls apart" and "serving as a step". In the Peak District the latter ("stemples") are commonly found in "climbing shafts" and their main purpose is to allow miners to climb up and down these shafts. Must admit that anything used in a supporting role is more commonly called a "prop". Pit Props Passage in Speedwell Cavern is a [poor] example - the vertical timbers at its entrance are generally referred to as pit props but in that case I doubt they're actually performing a supporting role. But whoever named the passage was obviously familiar with the word "prop".

So I'm with Wayland Smith and Tamaramole; stull is almost certainly a localised term.

One lives and learns . . . .   

Jim Rieuwerts Glossary of Derbyshire Lead Mining Terms includes stemples but not stulls. I've never heard the term used or seen it written in connection with Derbyshire, only in Wales and the South West.

I am curious as I have seen the term used in reference to the SW ore fields, but also to in reference to Australia, particularly Victoria. The term prop I am familiar with for a vertical support, but the term stemple seems more common to me as a horizontal support (keeping the walls apart, stacking deads) or access. In Wiltshire diagonal timbers are used in the corners of passages/roofs as supports and are referred to as scaulters/scorters. part of the idea being that if the roof bed came away it would pushed sideways into a solid bit and be wedged without falling.

https://www.facebook.com/Theundergroundminesofvictoria/?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/TheVictorianHistoricalMineChasers/?fref=ts

Roy Fellows uses the term 'stull'

I presumed it was synonymous with stemple, but the definitions above suggest a stull is for stacking deads on, and a stemple is for climbing on.

Chris.

Brains said:

I am curious as I have seen the term used in reference to the SW ore fields, but also to in reference to Australia, particularly Victoria.

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Those Cornish miners did get everywhere - from US site (I think):
http://www.ironminers.com/mining-school/stull/
They don't list stemple.

Mike

P.S. from wikipedia - Stull stoping is a form of stoping used in hardrock mining that uses systematic or random timbering ("stulls") placed between the foot and hanging wall of the vein. The method requires that the hanging wall and often the footwall be of competent rock as the stulls provide the only artificial support. This type of stope has been used up to a depth of 3,500 feet (1,077 m) and at intervals up to 12 feet (3.7 m) wide. The 1893 mining disaster at Dolcoath mine in Cornwall was caused by failure of the stulls holding up a huge weight of waste rock - both above suggest stulls are angled supports, whereas stemples are horizontal.

mikem said:

Brains said:

I am curious as I have seen the term used in reference to the SW ore fields, but also to in reference to Australia, particularly Victoria.

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Those Cornish miners did get everywhere - from US site (I think):
http://www.ironminers.com/mining-school/stull/

Mike

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An early Australian definition of a mine was "A hole in the ground with a Cornish man at the bottom."


(....and I agree that stemples and stulls are certainly not the same thing.)

Here are definitions from "Lead Mining in Wales" by W.J, Lewis (University of Wales Press 1967).

"Stemples    Pieces of wood fixed across a narrow open cast to shore up the sides, and to provide steps in and out of the workings.


Stulls  A term commonly used in Wales for bunnings.


Bunnings  Stages of wood across the mine."


This broadly agrees with my understanding of the terms when I worked in the mining business many years ago (virtually exclusively in Wales). Whatever their function, stemples were generally wedged into place. (I have heard Acrows referred to as "adjustable stemples" when installed horizontally and as "props" when installed vertically to support loads.).

In my mind, stemples were either for climbing up or resisting horizontal compression while bunnings were something I stood on if they were not rotten.


.

Stulls do seem to be heavier timbers, mentioned most often in steeply angled stopes

Probably from Middle High German stolle - prop, support

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whilst stemples are

a crossbar of wood in a mine shaft serving some special purpose (as of a step, supporting timber, or strut)

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Mike

De re metallica  published in 1556:
If the vein above is metal-bearing, as it sometimes is for a distance of several fathoms, then from the upper part of tunnels or even drifts that have already been driven, other drifts are driven again and again until that part of the vein is reached which does not yield metal. The timbering of these openings is done as follows : stulls are set at intervals into hitches in the hanging and footwall, and upon them smooth poles are laid continuously ; and that they may be able to bear the weight, the stulls are generally a foot and a half thick. After the ore has been taken out and the mining of the vein is being done elsewhere, the rock then broken, especially if it cannot be taken away without great difficulty, is thrown into these openings among the timber, and the carriers of the ore are saved toil, and the owners save half the expense. This then, generally speaking, is the method by which everything relating to the timbering of shafts, tunnels, and drifts is carried out.

peterk said:

De re metallica  published in 1556:
If the vein above is metal-bearing, as it sometimes is for a distance of several fathoms, then from the upper part of tunnels or even drifts that have already been driven, other drifts are driven again and again until that part of the vein is reached which does not yield metal. The timbering of these openings is done as follows : stulls are set at intervals into hitches in the hanging and footwall, and upon them smooth poles are laid continuously ; and that they may be able to bear the weight, the stulls are generally a foot and a half thick. After the ore has been taken out and the mining of the vein is being done elsewhere, the rock then broken, especially if it cannot be taken away without great difficulty, is thrown into these openings among the timber, and the carriers of the ore are saved toil, and the owners save half the expense. This then, generally speaking, is the method by which everything relating to the timbering of shafts, tunnels, and drifts is carried out.

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It would be interesting, although probably not conclusive, to know what the original Latin words were. It would be even better to know the terms used everyday in German in Agricola's time. The quote you give appears on page 126 of the 1950 hardback edition of the 1912 translation by President Hoover and his wife and it is apparent that they use stemple and stull interchangeably. This is discussed in the translators note on page 101 of that edition where they say "Where there is choice in modern miners nomenclature between an old and a modern term, we have leaned towards age, if it be a term generally understood.  ...we append a few examples of terms which served the English miner well for centuries, some of which are still extant in some communities, yet we believe they would carry as little meaning to the average reader as would the reproduction of the Latin terms coined by Agricola.

The list of terms given by the Hoovers on page 101 includes "Stemple = Post or stull"
There is no entry for stull or bunnings.

In my opinion the Hoovers' translation is a beautiful work, but we can't rely on it for the usage of particular words in the sixteenth century. We should not expect a twentieth century American mining engineer to understand all the subtleties of old fashioned English mining terms.


.

Interesting stuff, I have been aware of the term stull for many years, and took it to be a local term for massive timbers horizontally placed in mine workings, and stemples to be lighter weight timber. However it would seem the terms are distinctly regional and are now all encompassing in the areas of usage.

The photos by JC Burrows of Cornish tin-mining often show these massive timbers, and where they are shown supporting the roof in hading lodes, are always referred to as 'stulls'. Despite the posing, I consider the second photo to be one of the best underground shots ever made:

Excellent pictures, especially when you remember using plate cameras and flash powders were the only option. Couple that with the timbering and depth of field, with the miners playing grown up jenga and as you say some great photography.
Those Cornish (and Devon!) mines are really amazing places

This is an extremely interesting thread with much informed comment.

Of course, the meaning of words is constantly changing within our society, and mining terms will vary from region to region. Example is "winze" meaning an underground shaft. In the north Pennines these are known as "Sumps", a word with means something entirely different in caving circles.

My general understanding is that a "stemple" is simply an length of timber used typically across a stope to support the hanging wall, or in a shaft to be used as a climbing rise.

A row of heavy stemples may be timbered laterally and used to stack "deads", i.e. waste rock. This then is known as a "stull"

The stull may be constructed with ore passes so that as the stoping progresses upwards the ore bearing rock goes into the ore pass to be drawn from hoppers below, and waste rock is used to increase the height of the stull to follow the increasing height of the stope, thus providing a working platform for the miners.

It also serves to provide even more support for the hanging, as well as putting the waste rock to useful purpose, and saving the trouble of having to tram it out of the mine.

I should be the expert on stulls, as I am working up to 8 hours at a time at Cwmystwyth to stop one from coming down on the skipway!

Thanks for your ongoing work maintaining places!
So a stull could be termed a multi timber platform for working from and or stacking deads on, or just the individual timbers, or are both scenarios basically "correct" by modern useage?

Am I right in thinking the term "solar" is applied to a platform between ladders to allow transition from one to another, as distinct from a working platform that could be a stull?

Brains said:

Am I right in thinking the term "solar" is applied to a platform between ladders to allow transition from one to another, as distinct from a working platform that could be a stull?

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Yes.
Don't forget though nothing is engraved in stone, a saying could 'catch on' in a particular mine or area.

I have heard the term "weasel", no that is one to ponder on.