Restoring upland habitats

Simon Wilson

New member
I have started a new thread in 'cave conservation' because this is an issue which is of interest to cavers.

andrewmcleod said:
... the high(est) mountains will still be bare, and better to avoid the current ecological desert of grass, grass and more grass.

The term 'desert' is often applied to the Pennine uplands and whilst not strictly terminologically correct it is not wholly inappropriate. The Pennine uplands are dominated by species poor grassland and the most important of several reasons why they are in that state is overgrazing. One of the effects of the denudation of the Pennine uplands is rapid runoff which has an effect on caves.

For several decades efforts have been underway to improve upland vegetation and this issue has been given greater prominence this year because of the serious flooding in areas around the Pennines. One of the barriers in the way of reducing grazing has been farming subsidies which have encouraged overgrazing. Leaving the EU might be an opportunity for the UK to reduce subsidies for upland sheep grazing and improve funding for measure to improve the uplands. We can hope this happens and better than that we can get involved and campaign for it to happen.
 

rhychydwr1

Active member
It will a braver man than me who reduces farmer subsidies for uplands.

If you are concerned about flooding, as I think we all are, we will need to build reservoirs and widen and deepen rivers.

Also do not build houses on flood plains.
 

droid

Active member
Depends which particular parts of the 'Pennine Uplands' you're talking about. It's a lot more complex that the bland statement you've made, Simon.
 

peterk

Member
This thread has the potential to accompany other "Brexit" threads in loosing facts in a mountain of opinion.  I've no opinion on it and despite having my ear bent for 1/2hr by a local farmer about the ?6000 "Greening" deduction from his last payment I still don't know how it works. (He's certain it is used for erecting rural bus shelters)
Are there any experts on the Single area payment scheme and Entry Level Stewardship?
There looks to have been a major reform since 2012 in payments. 
"To qualify for the new single payment farmers will have to meet cross
compliance standards and requirements. There are two types of cross
compliance: Good Agricultural and Environmental Condition and Statutory
Management Requirements. The first of these is to ensure the land is
maintained in good agricultural and environmental condition. This will
include requirements such as the protection of hedges, stone walls and
watercourses, honouring existing access arrangements, adhering to the
Heather and Grass (Burning) Regulations and complying with existing
legislation protecting landscape features such as Scheduled Monuments"


This document http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/2786804 lists upland/moorland activities and their relevant "score" for the stewardship payments and lists more than those in the quote above e.g. stock levels at certain times and no supplementary feeding in winter, repair of remote agricultural buildings, no drainage activities etc.

How all this relates to the amount paid I've no idea.

To find what your local farmer or indeed a "London shooting syndicate" gets paid search at http://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/Search.aspx
 

bograt

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
I have started a new thread in 'cave conservation' because this is an issue which is of interest to cavers.

The Pennine uplands are dominated by species poor grassland and the most important of several reasons why they are in that state is overgrazing.

Here speaks the voice of lack of knowledge (I won't say ignorance-- YET!!), over 20 years ago, subsidies on livestock production where discontinued, any upland farm subsidies where re-directed into grassland and countryside management, overstocking (i.e. 'overgrazing') has been severely penalised.

If you want a campaign, you had better learn the facts.

Simon Wilson said:
One of the effects of the denudation of the Pennine uplands is rapid runoff which has an effect on caves.

Although I agree with the suggestion that rapid runoff was an effect of livestock subsidies, it was caused by the 'gripping' (i.e. drainage channels) of moorland, to allow for more kindly grazing for the upland sheep (less foot problems caused by wet ground), thereby allowing space for more sheep, it was not caused by sheep grazing. These channels are still there.


Simon Wilson said:
Leaving the EU might be an opportunity for the UK to reduce subsidies for upland sheep grazing and improve funding for measure to improve the uplands.

As explained, there is no subsidy for the UK upland sheep grazing, it is all for upland land management.

The main problem the UK's upland farmers have with the EU is that the interpretation of 'uplands' in the Apennines (for instance), does not compare to the Pennines, although the rules are the same.. 


P.S. Just crossed with your post Peterk,  :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:-- thanks, that's the kind of thing we have to live with  :LOL: (y) (y)
 

droid

Active member
Hang on.

Has Simon started this thread intending a discussion on Upland ecology, or is it intended as a 'discussion' on farming subsidies and Brexit?

If it's the former, I will contribute *from knowledge*. If the latter, he can go walk.....lol
 

mikem

Well-known member
Depends "when" you want to restore uplands to - at one time they were covered with ice sheets, then trees...

Mike
 

bograt

Active member
droid said:
Hang on.

Has Simon started this thread intending a discussion on Upland ecology, or is it intended as a 'discussion' on farming subsidies and Brexit?

If it's the former, I will contribute *from knowledge*. If the latter, he can go walk.....lol

Maybe he just wants to learn???..
 

peterk

Member
When the OP states One of the barriers in the way of reducing grazing has been farming subsidies which have encouraged overgrazing. Leaving the EU might be an opportunity for the UK to reduce subsidies for upland sheep grazing and improve funding for measure to improve the uplands. We can hope this happens and better than that we can get involved and campaign for it to happen. I assumed that was a relevant area to comment upon.
 

droid

Active member
bograt said:
droid said:
Hang on.

Has Simon started this thread intending a discussion on Upland ecology, or is it intended as a 'discussion' on farming subsidies and Brexit?

If it's the former, I will contribute *from knowledge*. If the latter, he can go walk.....lol

Maybe he just wants to learn???..

Maybe.

he hasn't shown much inclination to learn in any previous discussions though.
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
It was once forest. Let it go back to that.  The longest cave in the world is in a deciduous forest.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
One of the reasons why I started this new thread was to come to the defense of andrewmcleod who was being subject to undeserved attacks from the usual people. We all know who you are. Instead of just having a go at people all the time why not try making a positive contribution to what could be an interesting topic if you were to allow it to be.
 

bograt

Active member
Measures to 'improve habitat' have been made here (on the upland farm). and the Badgers have wiped out the Little Owls, Peewits and Curlews, as well as some of our livestock, the rabbits and hares have also decreased, the re-introduction of Buzzards is also an issue.
 

droid

Active member
If people make statements in other people's areas of expertise, Simon, they will be corrected in those statements.

You have done this frequently in bolt discussions and other debates.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
bograt said:
Measures to 'improve habitat' have been made here (on the upland farm). and the Badgers have wiped out the Little Owls, Peewits and Curlews, as well as some of our livestock, the rabbits and hares have also decreased, the re-introduction of Buzzards is also an issue.

Here (on an upland farm) I also see the effects of changes in upland land management that have occurred. It is a very complex subject. Although the word subsidy is not now used and payments come with very many conditions, farmers are still paid to graze sheep in the uplands. All I am saying is that many people want to see more policy changes which lead to fewer sheep and improved habitat.
 

bograt

Active member
droid said:
If people make statements in other people's areas of expertise, Simon, they will be corrected in those statements.

You have done this frequently in bolt discussions and other debates.

I think this is a little unfair, Simon has contributed a lot of good stuff to the bolt debate, -- upland farming, however, -----

BUT, he has started a thread that I do know something about, that cavers and everyone should know about---
 

bograt

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
farmers are still paid to graze sheep in the uplands. All I am saying is that many people want to see more policy changes which lead to fewer sheep and improved habitat.

Oh Dear, Oh Dear, and there was I defending your reputation, if farmers are being paid to graze sheep, it is as a land management exercise, NOT for production of lamb meat, 'overgrazing' is not in the agenda, no-one is subsidising sheep production!!!--- Gob before Knowledge irritates me.
 

Hughie

Active member
bograt said:
Measures to 'improve habitat' have been made here (on the upland farm). and the Badgers have wiped out the Little Owls, Peewits and Curlews, as well as some of our livestock, the rabbits and hares have also decreased, the re-introduction of Buzzards is also an issue.

Very similar to the issues we face in the Somerset wetlands, Bograt. Same two culprits, too. Alongside extensification of agriculture caused by ever increasing water levels. Back in the day, when NCC were running the show things were improving.....
 

droid

Active member
*Positive contribution*

The upland environment is an entirely artificial one. Deforestation started in the Neolithic, and continued apace in the Bronze Age. So by about 3000 years ago, the original forest/scrub cover had largely disappeared.

In the mid-late Bronze Age there was a widespread deterioration in the climate. Warm conditions were replaced by cold and wet: this led to the development of blanket bog in the upland regions, bogs that persist to this day. The deterioration was less marked in limestone areas but there was still a general depopulation of these areas too.

The issues around the blanket bog (peat) areas are generally related to erosion of the thin plant cover leading to erosion of the fragile peat soils.  Drainage also contributes to this. Although they are not species-rich, bogs represent a specialised habitat for a unique assemblage of flora and fauna and as such deserve protecting.

In the limestone areas, the general ground cover is grass, with flowering plants tolerant of alkaline conditions. These plants are generally not grazed. Main problem here is the use of inorganic fertilisers. The grasses will then out-compete the flowering plants leading to a degradation of the habitat. Compare and contrast the relatively species rich slopes of many Derbyshire dales with the paucity of species on the upland fields which are fertilised on a regular basis.

Remedial measures for the bogs are often centred on replacing the plant cover and restricting access until this cover establishes. The best way to improve the status of limestone soils is to simply cease the application of inorganic fertilisers.

This isn't cut-and-paste. Any poor grammar is because I'm writing this after a particularly traumatic night shift.....
 
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