Author Topic: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken  (Read 1592 times)

Offline Stuart France

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Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« on: February 27, 2017, 11:39:52 pm »
The lock on the Aggy gate has now got a broken key stuck in it.  An accident of last weekend.

The cave management committee is pondering what to do.

It's an expensive high security lock that's not going to come off easily.

And so you can't get in the cave at the present time, at least not with a key.

Stuart France
Cambrian Caving Council

Offline 2xw

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 10:15:56 am »
Remove the entire gate, you'd get a little bit back in scrap value
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Offline alastairgott

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 11:02:50 am »
Derbyshire Key? clearly this won't work with the welsh gates/doors though.

or I guess you could try to put some glue on a stick and get the key out?
 or maybe an SDS drill on chisel action with a blunt end would shake the remainder of the key out? I've heard it settles concrete quite well, so might work springing the lock mech back into place with a little oil. maybe doing this would break the door/gate further and could then get some money back in scrap...
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Online Topimo

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 11:12:58 am »
What potential solutions has the pondering of the cave management committee yielded so far?

Perhaps the BCA could provide finance to a locksmith to deal with it?
Perhaps they could chop all the others off too, £££.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 11:39:40 am »
Talking to someone at the weekend, there's a good reason for having a door/gate on a cave, and that's to try and keep the airflow as constant as possible (prior to human intervention/digging).
 keeping the airflow constant seems to help protect formations, such as the cortisan?
 apparently some doors in France [the country] are double (baffle) doors to stop airflow and even have seals?
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Offline alastairgott

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 11:40:17 am »
this seems like overkill!
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Online mudman

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 12:08:22 pm »
You can also try a coping saw blade. You insert it in with teeth facing backwards and then hook the key out with it. But use a lot of 3-in-1 oil first.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 01:59:07 pm »
It's an Ingersoll padlock, as in the second smaller photo on this page:
http://emorlands.com/ingersollpadlock.html

As you'll see the key has got notches down both sides which are gripped on both sides by the springy bits inside the lock.  Just tapping the lock with a hammer or poking it with a bent paperclip isn't going to do very much.

Also the whole thing is made of something like boron steel.  A disc cutter is going to find it hard work on the lock too.

I have no idea what the management committee is going to do now.  Someone went to look at the problem yesterday and I think a return visit is planned this coming weekend...

Incidentally, the Courtesan formation mentioned above is a couple of hours travel in from the entrance, with lots of massive and small passages in between, and won't be affected by draughts in the entrance series.  For those of you that have not seen it, take a look at the photo top left in the montage here.
http://dev.chelseaspelaeo.org/about.htm

Stuart France
Cambrian Caving Council



Offline Dave Tyson

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 02:13:21 pm »
Also the whole thing is made of something like boron steel.  A disc cutter is going to find it hard work on the lock too.
A 115mm diamond coated cutting disk is under £15 and will cut it easily if you take your time.

Dave

Offline Huge

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 02:25:09 pm »
There are locksmiths in Brynmawr who are cavers. They should have the right tools and skills.

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Offline Maj

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 02:35:47 pm »
I did once manage to get the broken key out of the ingersol padlock on Longwood August. It all had to be done through the hole in the lid working by feel.
If I recall I used a sharp hardened steel point of some kind to catch on the surface of the side of the key. Then once the key moved out slightly I pulled it out with a pair of long nose pliers.
It was dark at the time, but that didn't matter because the lock was out of sight inside the lid/gate. All my tools were attached so I didn't drop any down the entrance shaft.
That saved a lot of time and effort, since the only other solution would have been to cut the lid/gate off.

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Offline Huge

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 02:42:50 pm »
Durban's Shoe Repairs and Locksmiths.

https://m.facebook.com/durbansshoerepairs

They also repair oversuits and tackle bags!!  :thumbsup:


Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 02:45:12 pm »
compressed air blown down the key hole might loosen it enough to get a grip of the remaining key with a pair of (small) long nosed pliers

Online mudman

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 02:56:05 pm »
It's an Ingersoll padlock, as in the second smaller photo on this page:
http://emorlands.com/ingersollpadlock.html

As you'll see the key has got notches down both sides which are gripped on both sides by the springy bits inside the lock.  Just tapping the lock with a hammer or poking it with a bent paperclip isn't going to do very much.

Also the whole thing is made of something like boron steel.  A disc cutter is going to find it hard work on the lock too.

I have no idea what the management committee is going to do now.  Someone went to look at the problem yesterday and I think a return visit is planned this coming weekend...

Incidentally, the Courtesan formation mentioned above is a couple of hours travel in from the entrance, with lots of massive and small passages in between, and won't be affected by draughts in the entrance series.  For those of you that have not seen it, take a look at the photo top left in the montage here.
http://dev.chelseaspelaeo.org/about.htm

Stuart France
Cambrian Caving Council


Which is why I suggested a coping saw blade. A bent paperclip isn't going to do it but the multiple contact points of reverse facing hardened teeth have much more chance of gripping the remnants of the key to pull it out far enough to grab it with a pair of needle nosed pliers. I've used this method in the past to successfully remove a broken Yale key so it would be worthwhile giving it a go before you dismiss it out of hand.
And, trying Durban's in Brynmawr would also be a top idea.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 06:28:21 pm »
I think the best approach will be to take along a small electric hand drill (the sort of hobby thing used for drilling holes for component wires in printed circuit board prototypes) and then drill a 1mm or so sized hole into the centre of the broken off remnant of the key blade stuck in the lock, so as to create a slot into the middle of it, of course where there aren't any moving bits in the lock, then ram in a small nail of similar diameter into the said new slot made in the key blade, and pull the key out with the bit of the nail that's still protruding from the lock.  Of course, if the nail is wider than the key hole then it's going to jam in there and make a bad problem far worse, and mustn't snap the drill bit off either.

Any more engineering suggestions please before this weekend's return game at a cave entrance venue... ?

Stuart

Offline 2xw

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 08:44:12 pm »
If none of this works maybe you could fill it with concrete
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Offline Ed

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 08:49:40 pm »
About 30 seconds with a diamond edge sthil saw will sort it

Offline manrabbit

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 11:55:21 pm »
Walked over to take a look earlier and there is about 3 mm of the broken key sticking out of the lock, managed to get a really good purchase on the broken end with a pair of snips, but even pulling as hard as I could it doesn't move at all, I guess there's a load of grit in there and thats probably why the key got jammed resulting in the breakage. Off over tomorrow night with a very thin cutting disk that my brother uses to remove hardened locks and will replace with nice shiny new one.
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Offline Cavebaby88

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2017, 08:18:08 am »
Manrabbit has sorted this!!!!
Fight the fear - You WILL succeed

Offline Alkapton

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2017, 11:12:37 pm »
I can't begin to imagine how to break such a key this way,  no doubt you already try but there is better than wd40 I forgets its name, but it works wonders, squirt loads, wait a minuite and the lock works for me at least again,  just a suggestion, that much sticking out it must come out.
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Offline Alkapton

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2017, 11:14:07 pm »
Missed last post, well done manrabbitt  :thumbsup:
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Online rhychydwr1

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2017, 09:18:27 am »
My lock smith keeps reminding me, I must not use 3 in 1 oil, WD40 etc.  Only use graphite to lubricate a lock.  :o


Offline manrabbit

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2017, 05:56:25 pm »
The new lock fitted to the Aggy gate has the same key pattern as the old lock so your old club keys will/should fit. We are finding that the nice new lock isn't as tolerant of damaged keys as the old lock that was fairly worn was. When inserting the key you have to make sure it goes in right to the shoulders on the key, it needs to be inserted 100%, so the shoulders are flush against the lock face before trying to turn it. Some keys that I tried seemed to be fully home when in fact they still had a few mm to go.

Huw
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Offline Stuart France

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Re: Agen Allwedd Padlock broken
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2017, 09:59:46 pm »
This problem is over.

Yet another padlock has been fitted that seems to work well with the keys already in circulation and some brand new ones.  So if you've got an old key that is obviously worn thin, bent, fractured or dubious in some other way, then please post it back to Malcolm Reid (the MLCMAC Permit Sec) to get it replaced on a free issue basis.  Otherwise your usual key should be OK.

Stuart France
Conservation/Access Officer
Cambrian Caving Council