Hah! Caught ya, no this is not meant to be about the 'old argument' its about the entrance 

At the recent PDCMG meeting it was decided to put the new ladder {back} at the bottom of the entrance series just before Cairn Junction because tired cavers have problems climbing up a knotted rope.

actually I find this climb completely impossible without using SRT so I'll be the first to celebrate the installation of the ladder in the L&F.

Has it been installed yet?  If not does anyone have a clue when it will be or if it is still happening?

Chris,

There has never been a fixed ladder on the climb in the entrance series and there is no intention to install one. The knotted rope and lifeline provided should be perfectly adequate. Cavers have always taken their own electron ladders if they thought they were needed and I suggest you consider doing the same in future.

I think you are becoming confused with plans to replace the fixed ladder on Balcony Pitch.

Are you sure you are tackling the climb correctly? Chimney up the rift to the left of the rope then move out right towards the top, just using the rope to keep in balance. Don't try to climb directly up the rope unless you have very strong arms.

In all honesty, if you need to use SRT on such a simple free-climb perhaps it is worth considering whether you should really be thinking about going much further into the cave at all.

NigR:  I suggest you read the minites for the 4th July meeting on the PDCMG web site.  The ladder on Balcony Pitch does not need replacing because only the first rung was faulty - the rest of the ladder is fine.  It was decided to put the new ladder in the bottom of the entrance where tired cavers have trouble.

If you read Tarquins description of the cave there was a ladder in a bad state of repair at the entrance but its now removed.  I know people who remember it.

I watched the problems a very fit and capable 18year old had getting up the knotted rope - it took him at least 10 minuites to figure it out and he now claims he can do it without problems - I wonder if that includes not standing on my shoulders to get up the first bit.  He now takes a ladder with him.

Your description of how to do it is correct, but it is far from easy and well beyond what I can do.    With SRT there is no problem for me.  For the little part of the cave I have yet been in there is little problem for me.

There are a lot of people very suprised I cave and go where I go.  There is at least one person convinced I should not be caving - but that opinion is based soley on the fact I have a genetic disease - which means simply I'm riddled with arthritis and live on pain killers - free climbing is not my strong point.  I know my limitations and live within them.  I am quite capable of 'hard' caves - I need them.

You have heard of albinoism - it is a genetic fault of the metabolism.  I have ochronosis alkaptonuria it is what you get if the next step in the metabolic catabolism of protien is broken (break the step after that you are dead in 6 months - break the step after that you are just plain dead).

Chris,

Funnily enough, following my previous post, I received an unexpected PM from another member of this forum who stated:

A good and measured response to the Ogof Draenen Entrance thread today; your reserved and wise comment needs no further additions...

I'll warn you now - this reply may well not be quite so reserved.

Alkapton said:

I suggest you read the minites for the 4th July meeting on the PDCMG web site.  The ladder on Balcony Pitch does not need replacing because only the first rung was faulty - the rest of the ladder is fine.   It was decided to put the new ladder in the bottom of the entrance where tired cavers have trouble.

Click to expand...

Oh, you mean these minutes do you?

3. Matters arising from the minutes
b. (4.b.vi) – [Not discussed at this meeting] – Following the last
meeting AG was actioned to install the new ‘Daren’ style ladder the
Balcony pitch. The ladder was taken in sectioned to Balcony pitch and
the existing ladder inspected. The existing ladder appeared in good
condition with the exception of a single missing rung near the top.
When this rung originally failed shortly after installation it was
assumed that the entire ladder was flawed, time has proved otherwise.
Although the new ladder is superior to the current one, it seems
wasteful and a lot of work to install the new ladder. AG proposed that
the new ladder be installed on the entrance climb just up from Cairn
Junction as this often causes difficult for tied cavers existing the cave
and the Balcony Pitch ladder repaired. Please discuss at next meeting.


Well, you read them. Nothing has been discussed yet, let alone decided.

Alkapton said:

If you read Tarquins description of the cave there was a ladder in a bad state of repair at the entrance but its now removed.  I know people who remember it.

Click to expand...

I couldn't give a toss what a second-hand description of the cave has to say. Yes, there may well have been a tatty old ladder left there at some point (probably why it was removed) but there has never been a ladder placed there as an officially sanctioned fixed aid. Why? Because it has never been needed. If people don't want to use the rope they can just take their own electron ladder in with them, no problem. So why can't you?

Regarding your medical condition, you have my sympathy. However, the hard facts remain (sorry, but it's a cruel world at times). I've tried to be kind but now I'll be blunt. If you (or anyone else) genuinely cannot climb that short pitch using the fixed aids that are already in place, whatever the reason, then you should not be in the cave. Full stop, end of story. Just accept it.

Alkapton said:

I am quite capable of 'hard' caves - I need them.

Click to expand...

Again, sorry, but you have already shown that you are not capable if you need to use SRT on a 5m free-climb. As for this 'I need them' crap, all I can say is if that is the case then you are most definitely caving for the wrong reasons.

Alkapton said:

. . .

At the recent PDCMG meeting it was decided to put the new ladder {back} at the bottom of the entrance series just before Cairn Junction because tired cavers have problems climbing up a knotted rope.

actually I find this climb completely impossible without using SRT so I'll be the first to celebrate the installation of the ladder in the L&F.

. . .

Click to expand...

Hi Chris

When I read your post this evening I recalled another recent posting from you in which you said in part: "Most of my caving has been done solo - starting with 'easy' caves I've worked up to challenging caves by using descriptions to get to 'next step'."

I have done the climb you describe in all states of good fitness (on the way into Ogof Draenen) and also in all states of exhaustion (on the way out from the Dollimore Series and War of the Worlds etc.).

It's all about technique - especially if you find climbs tricky with your medical condition. What you need to do is go in with someone who is a patient teacher and who is also confident and knowledgeable about this particular climb and ask them to show you where the holds are and what precise moves to make. Learning from someone with more experience than yourself is not a weakness or a shortcoming - it gives you greater skill, strength and confidence.

The problem with the climb is that the holds in general are not where the knotted rope hangs - you have to work your way backwards into where the rift ends. Once you see how it is done, then part way down the climb a bold step from the side on which you first approach the climb (on the way in), across to the far wall, enables you to descend from the most exposed part of the climb to a point where the moves are thereafter relatively straightforward for the lower less-exposed section. What you need to do is remember how you came down when you are looking for the holds on the way back up again.

The secret is to try and do the climb without using the knotted rope until you really have to. It is holding onto the rope and relying on it which is giving you the most problems on the climb. There was no rope there at all (handline or lifeline) when I first did the climb. At present I wouldn't recommend that you try the climb without being lifelined - but I have to admit I can't ever remember using a lifeline on the pitch myself.

If climbing is a problem for you try some practice sessions on an indoor climbing wall where you should be able to find someone to give you assistance and guidance. If you can get to Bristol, then try Undercover Rock: http://www.undercover-rock.com/default.aspx

I started on a much more primitive sports centre climbing wall in the late 1970s and afterwards ended up being taken across places like the Marble Showers Traverses in OFD.  I seem to recall that particular experience, or certainly my first trip out towards OFD 3, was in the company of Rob Parker who later built Undercover Rock. There's a picture of Bob Hall on the Marble Showers Traverses here: http://www.darkanddeep.co.uk/caving_South%20wales.asp

There's around a 70-90 ft (21.3-27.4 m) drop beneath Bob's feet. There's no traverse line, no fixed aids and no lifeline. Hunting for that picture for you I've noticed that there's a picture of me in Midnight Passage (also in OFD) next to him - virtually at the bottom of the page.

Yes, asking for fixed aids to be installed where there are tricky climbs is one potential solution, but you'll find it far more satisfying when you discover that, having learnt the correct technique, you will be quite capable of doing the climb in style yourself - without assistance - and will then also be in the enjoyable position of being able to show other less experienced cavers how to do the climb for themselves . . .

Unlike myself, Clive clearly has the patience of a Saint. Sound advice, well worth reading and acting upon.

I'm just beginning to wonder whether Alkapton has been deliberately planted on this board in order to encourage those who have always advocated more open cave access to change their opinions. If so, it's proving to be a successful ploy as I'm certainly being forced to reconsider some of my own long-held views.

Me a plant - HAH, HAH, HAH.    Got accussed of being in drug squad once many years ago - that was hillarious too.
No, I'm just bloody minded.
Learning from others would be great if there were others to learn from who have right level of ability themselves.  Unfortunately OC is 82 and rather less physically able than I.  Whilst his grandson is going to be a most excellent and able caver he is still even less experienced than me.
I got whatever problems I got - that I don't ask help for because there isn't any - thats what I have to deal with myself.  I know which bits of me break the easyest - the knees - they get looked after at all costs.  Even if I bugger a knee up I still can manage pitches and gymnastics - just slower.

Regarding free climbing.  Confidence is a lot of the problem, I know I'm more able than I think I am.  But, even if I get myself up on the ledge on the wrong side of the rift, the step onto the right side is a huge one, if I screw it up I know how much it will hurt.  I am lazy, there is a rope there that is obviously for SRT.  Why take the risk?    I can get up in 30 seconds.  If I try to free climb, even with lifeline its going to take 10-15 minites and there is a risk I'll bugger a knee up.

What I'll never do is ask for a p hanger to be installed just for me - it should never be necessary.  But where I can I'll always want to use ropes because I feel safe that way - whats the problem?    In time my technique will improve, it already has improved!  But my body won't.  Thats why I spend time learning technique.  Ladders not a problem either, but why take ladder when one already has SRT and possibly bag of ropes?

I've heard about the rift of certain death that connects OFD3 to OFD2, I'm assured I'll find the bit before it more worrying than the rift itself - I look forward to finding out   I'm actually scared of edges, like really scared of edges in a totally irrational way.  Thats just something else I have to deal with.  Sometimes it is good to have a dim light.

If you think me in Draenen entrance is pathetic you want to see me in the 2m climb in Waterfall cave.  If I don't take rope and SRT I can just about manage to climb down onto the boulder - eventually.  But getting back up - I'll stack breeze block and slabs onto boulder to make it higher and still take 15 minuites to get courage together to transfer the weight from my legs to my arms and climb up (even though it is easy - even for me).

Chris,

Listen and take heed.

Alkapton said:

....there is a rope there that is obviously for SRT.

Click to expand...

The rope is not specifically for SRT - it is there for use as a lifeline, either for someone using the knotted rope or climbing their own electron ladder.

Alkapton said:

But where I can I'll always want to use ropes because I feel safe that way - whats the problem?

Click to expand...

No problem at all. However, you might like to consider using one of your own ropes. Unless you know that an in-situ rope is being maintained as a fixed aid for SRT then you are taking a chance every time you use it. Personally, I would strongly advise against using any rope you may find underground for SRT unless you have either placed it there yourself or are aware of its history.

Alkapton said:

....I'm just bloody minded.

Click to expand...

You can be as bloody minded as you like, just try to be so in safety. From some of the things you have said in several of your posts I find it hard to get away from the conclusion that you are an accident waiting to happen. I really do hope I am wrong.

If you're not tough enough to handle the entrance series, dig your own easier one.

Rhys
;-)

Your points are well taken.    But where do you draw the line?
I love Ogof Nant Rhin to bits, so when I hear of Pont Gam I have to learn SRT for myself to do it.  First time in I take big bag of ropes, first pitch fine, then I go the wrong way, if it were not for someone telling me I would still be going wrong way.

Taking big bag of ropes in Pont Gam is hard work.  At first pitch there was already rope.  When finally I find second pitch there was rope.    (on this attempt I took no rope expecting to find it)  Unfortunately at third pitch there was no rope.

A rope got donateted for third pitch.

Rope at first pitch is sodden, sodden but fine.  Rope at second pitch was/is stiff and not sodden so much so if I use rack I take a bar off.

Rope I put at third pitch is excellent srt rope, don't know how old but it is good.  Only one I worry about is at first pitch but it seems OK but I would not want to fall on it, but then it would be f ing hard to fall on it.

What I've done is at first pitch I tie rope to mallion <-> mallion to hanger.  Cut rope so second half of first pitch is tie rope to mallion <-> mallion to hanger.    (orriginally rope just left at top of pitch not tied)      First pitch is really two seperate pitches and without using two ropes it don't make sense to me

Second pitch instead of rope coiled at top it is now belayed to natural and hanging.

Third pitch rope is tied to mallion <-> mallion to hanger

In this way I hope people can now go in either direction without the extreame hassle of taking ropes.  OK, the ropes won't last forever (especially at first pitch(es), but people must use judgment.  I'll be looking from time to time.

I say this because I am not perfect.  I want people to be aware of what I've done.    I also want people to enjoy a cave that is a tight sharp grabby muddy awkward bastard of a cave without having to drag a bag of ropes - and if you go in the Nant Rhin entrance and no nice rope is hanging in Aven d'Oznog you ain't getting up there no how.

Of course there are risks in trusting ropes in caves.    But sometimes the thought of making life easy for others  I'm pissed again....    It still seems a good idea to me.   

Personally unless I either see the hanger a rope is tied to or I know someone who knows I really won't want to use that rope (rope hanging in Shaven Aven is an example of something I won't toutch).      This is a hard subject and should have a thread of its own.

Alkapton said:

What I've done is at first pitch I tie rope to mallion <-> mallion to hanger. Cut rope so second half of first pitch is tie rope to mallion <-> mallion to hanger. (orriginally rope just left at top of pitch not tied)     

Second pitch instead of rope coiled at top it is now belayed to natural and hanging.

I want people to be aware of what I've done. 

Click to expand...

Having waded my way through this nonsensical gibberish (is English your native language?), I'll give you some advice that should stand you in good stead should you bother to listen to it. I suggest you do listen as it may help you live a little bit longer (although whether the rest of mankind will thank me for this is open to question).

Simply put it is this:

Do not f*** around with other people's gear underground!

Apart from the obvious dangers of not knowing a rope's age or history (visual inspection on its own is not enough), there are others.

Did you not consider that these ropes cost money and belonged to someone? That they may have been left as they were for a purpose? That their owner might one day wish to be reunited with them and may return?

Obviously not.

Fortunately (for you), the ropes are not mine.

Unfortunately (for you), I've a pretty good idea whose ropes they may be. He's a big, big boy and he's not going to be a happy bunny when he reads this. He's gonna be gunnin' for you now, that's for sure.

Best go into permanent hiding or buy a one-way ticket to Afghanistan would be my suggestion.

Good luck.

NigR said:

Do not f*** around with other people's gear underground!

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Indeed! There is a strange attitude that some cavers have that anything underground is theirs to play with as they choose. Everything, everything from the smallest piece of kit to the cave itself is somebody else's property.

If rope in question was not, as I assumed, left where it was as aid for that aven in permanent sense, then owner has my appologies and I can easily arrainge a replacment rope.  No offence was ever intended.    The rope at top of d'Oznog has been donated specifically for that purpose

Sometimes my typing too fast to be English

In humble appology a few excusses.

After someone heard me moan "I goto go back in Pont Gam dragging rope cause there ain't one at top of last pitch" he suggested I take in one of his and leave it there.  Also having ropes at each pitch means through trips in both directions should be possible making both cave more 'fun' for others.

The first pitch always bothered me.  Whether I use the rope there or one I take in, because the pitch is in two halfs with about 3.5 m between them, possibly because of inexperience (but given length of rope I doubt that)  I never figured how to rig the second half without making the middle of the rope rub badly on the limestone.    Once I even used a seperate rope for second bit for that reason.

So when I rigged it in a more permanent way I seemed to have a choice (using single rope was not an option because anyone coming up will nessecerily derig the pitch for later people coming in same direction)  either use two ropes (means leaving long length of rope lying in water), or cut the rope so both parts have seperate ropes and it is easy to coil the tails and leave them out of water.    I did think about it.

So I opted to cut rope - because that made most sense to me.

I've also tried in different places to announce what I've done - mainly at Brynmawr CC because I assume thats where the rope in question comes from, though there is no reason for that to be the case.    Apart from someone saying "Don't you realise installing ropes like that makes you leagally responsible for them" I've not been criticized unitll now.

There is equivalent rope (in better condition) in my 'tack' room if owner of rope in question takes offense at my actions.

Having lived in one for a period of time I have no intention of going back to an 'Islamic' country - life here is hard enougth 8)

Suggestion: Let NigR teach the grandchild.  Your white stick may impair the guidedogs abilities

Rhys said:

If you're not tough enough to handle the entrance series, dig your own easier one.

Rhys
;-)

Click to expand...

What an excellent philosophy.

whitelackington said:

Rhys said:

If you're not tough enough to handle the entrance series, dig your own easier one.

Rhys
;-)

Click to expand...

What an excellent philosophy.

Click to expand...

Conversely, if someone were to find the current entrance series too easy they could always open up a harder route.

or drink 20 pints and eat 10 pounds of chocholate while inside cave and have problem with squeeze before scaff