I thank MMilner for drawing my attention to Water Icicle Cave and the relationship between the Orpheus and NE, see http://www.orpheuscavingclub.org.uk/misc/Water%20Icicle%20Close%20Cavern.pdf.  This got me wondering whether this was a unique relationship or were there other examples of similar formal links.  So can people come up with other examples of formal links between NE and caving clubs / groups of cavers over a cave elsewhere in England?  And I guess by extension, are there other similar agreements with other bodies such as Natural Resources Wales, English Heritage, CADW and so on?

I would suggest that the associated topic of whether they are of any value be debated elsewhere, possibly under the specific area for the cave?

I know of (I ought to as I wrote 'em) management agreements between cavers, landowners and Natural England. However, I also know that the ones with which I am most familiar neither concern caves on access land nor have any legal standing.

thank you for that observation.  I have to admit that I am unclear as the legal standing of the example but Sec 28J of the Wildlife and Countryside Act comes to mind.

Are we talking access agreements here or other types?

If you are planning significant entrance works in a SSSI, then a Consent Form needs to be submitted and approved. A good example is the top entrance to Titan, which Moose sorted with NE and the landowner/tenant. NE are generally very good with this sort of stuff.

They don't normally get involved in access issues unless something of significant importance is found like the new extensions in WICC. Then it's normally just to allow time for scientific examination, etc. to take place. However, if something needs protecting long-term, then things can be different.

Scientific methods are always improving, so something that might not seem important now, might well become  important in the future. Eg:- Detection of pollen, magnetic polarisation, dating techniques even DNA testing (this is real) if sufficient organic material is available.

mmilner said:

Are we talking access agreements here or other types?

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I was not thinking of agreements to dig, rather an agreement to control access by some means.  Graham refers to 'Management agreements' or 'Management Plans' as I believe they are called if written by NE.  It seems to me that a Management Plan could include a means of controlling access to preserve the cave, so I thought I would ask the question.  The only other case which sprung to my mind and was not really appropriate was the agreements which BPC and CPC have with NE for the Gaping Gill winch meets.

I would not think access land would play into this as the cave entrance itself (sorry mine entrance) is not locked. What goes on in the cave would not matter in open access land. So all those people crying about loosing their gates down south due to access lands, just move the gates further in!

Or better yet like the cave above, just gate the delicate bits if that's what you are concerned about, leave the rest of the cave open.

Alex said:

I would not think access land would play into this as the cave entrance itself (sorry mine entrance) is not locked. What goes on in the cave would not matter in open access land. So all those people crying about loosing their gates down south due to access lands, just move the gates further in!

Or better yet like the cave above, just gate the delicate bits if that's what you are concerned about, leave the rest of the cave open.

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Alex, you do know what happens to landowners who put locked gates in the way of access?

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/go-walking/report-a-path-or-access-problem.aspx

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/news/ramblers-threaten-court-action-over-blocked-path-801507373

How would moving a gate a few yards further into a cave help?

martinr said:

Alex, you do know what happens to landowners who put locked gates in the way of access? How would moving a gate a few yards further into a cave help?

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There are no public footpaths in caves!

mmilner said:

There are no public footpaths in caves!

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Going somewhat off Bob's topic, but this is exactly the sort of thing that leads to stupid beliefs from cavers (not you, Mel). I can think of one situation where a footpath runs immediately past a (gated) cave entrance. There were cavers who believed that this gave them a right of access to the cave. It didn't, of course, but my word they wouldn't be convinced.

The law has long been very clear on the nature of a public footpath. A lawyer would know better than I but long before CROW was a gleam in a politician's ink-well, it is strictly a pedestrian right-of-way from one place to another, and in theory, unless the law has changed, or the land flanking it is open anyway you have no legal rights to do anything but walk along it. You're hardly likely to be prosecuted for photographing an open vista from one (though a race-horse trainer was once successfully sued for photographing from a public path, a rival's horses in training) but you could be held to be trespassing if you wander off it without permission. I don't know how CROW affects this, but as far as I am aware this is still the law for paths on non-CROW or non-Common land unless the landowner allows such wandering.

For a caving example, think of Swildons Hole. The public footpath runs from Eastwater Farm to Priddy Church, crossing the dry valley but a field away from the cave, and there is no public R-O-W from it to the entrance. 

NigelG said:

For a caving example, think of Swildons Hole. The public footpath runs from Eastwater Farm to Priddy Church, crossing the dry valley but a field away from the cave, and there is no public R-O-W from it to the entrance.

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There is however a separate right of way from the church to the entrance of the cave.
Not that that gives you a right of entry to the cave.

Swildons path by LesW10, on Flickr

In all seriousness, I have not come across anyone who has said they believe they have a right to enter a cave because it is on a footpath .... is there a general "body" of people who believe this or are the references made to such people actually alluding to one or two individuals ?

(If so, can't they be ignored as they are a distraction to this topic?)

Ian