This crops up from time to time as being a recommended path to follow prior to certain actions being taken.

How is it done or best achieved?

Any examples? Also, how do you know if it has been done satisfactorily?

What defines the "wider caving community"?

It needs to be done.

The largest single gathering of cavers within the UK is at Hidden Earth and yet no attempt has been made to gather opinions at it.

BCA has between 5000 and 6000 members and an income of about ?125,000 yet decisions at last year's AGM were decided by 29 participants. With so few people attending, it will only take one small club to turn up in force at an AGM to outvote everyone there and get their own agenda through.

Some people on this forum have suggested that our caving organisations benefit those that run them. A cynical view perhaps but after what happened to me last year, I have to agree that some people representing British Caving are in it for themselves and their mates at the expense of other cavers.

It was dissappointing to see so much written about what CNCC should be doing and yet when it came to the AGM, only one new person put themselves forward to stand on the committee. It is no good shouting from the sidelines, if you want change then you need to put yourselves forward to do the work.

Power corrupts.

Time that we limited the duration of the main positions within BCA, BCRA and the regional councils.
We also need to limit the positions occupied by any one person across BCA, BCRA, regional councils and GPF.

Time for some democracy within UK Caving.

Can we have an Online Ballot of BCA members for BCA and regional councils on a regular basis ?
Similarly for BCRA members.
Why do we have so many physical meetings or is it to deliberately limit the participation ? Online meetings ??

Our caving organisations need to be transparent, representative and democratic.
Their primary purpose should be to secure the future of Caving for everybody and not just the few.
If they fail to do this then those that have the time and will need to change our organisations or create new ones.

Evolution or Revolution ?

Cap'n Chris said:

How is it done or best achieved?

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First of all you ask the people you can be confident will give you the answer you want. Then you decide you have probably asked enough people to have come to a sensible democratic solution. And then you tell everyone else.

Democracy, time limited posts, hmm, all very well provided that people will put themselves forward, which they won't.

Chris has put himself forward & has served his time. He knows how many people are willing to turn up to meetings, especially when there is little contentious to discuss.

Hell the only time we got a full room for a CSCC meeting was when the landowner closed Swildons.

And when it comes to time-limiting roles, OK some people really do need to go, but we would have lost Elsie's vast experience and hard work in Welsh C&A that had been the case. If you want someone to stand down, then stand against them & make your case.

Cap'n Chris said:

This crops up from time to time as being a recommended path to follow prior to certain actions being taken.

How is it done or best achieved?

Any examples? Also, how do you know if it has been done satisfactorily?

What defines the "wider caving community"?

Click to expand...

You'll never involve the 'wider' caving community because the 'wider' part includes a hell of a lot of people that really aren't interested in being involved in any such matters. Just like loads of people whinge about politicians and politics, only a very small minority actually step up and get involved.

What is this 'consensus' of which you speak?

Get 10 cavers together and you'll have 10 different opinions. The 'consensus' will be determined by an unholy combination of 'banging on' and apathy.

kdxn said:

With so few people attending, it will only take one small club to turn up in force at an AGM to outvote everyone there and get their own agenda through.

Click to expand...

Fortunately this isn't the case with BCA, as the voting system requires a majority of both Individual Members and Groups present.

Why do we have so many physical meetings or is it to deliberately limit the participation ? Online meetings ??

Click to expand...

To the question on limiting participation: No, not deliberately, but it does have that useful effect. It limits it to those who can be bothered, and who are more likely (certainly not guaranteed) to have thought through what they are going to say.

To the suggestion for online meetings: See above paragraph then check a selection of serious replies to virtually any topic on ukCaving.

Time-limited posts is all well and good but how do you deal with the situation which will arise on a fairly regular basis, which is that the incumbent has to step down as they've reached the end of their term but there's no replacement; the result is  nobody doing the job that everybody thinks somebody should be doing. There are a lot of people happy to moan and gripe about how various organisations are run (read - they don't/won't do what _I_ want) and not many willing to step up to the mark when a post needs filling, or for that matter to challenge an incumbent.

Chocolate fireguard said:

Why do we have so many physical meetings or is it to deliberately limit the participation ? Online meetings ??

Click to expand...

To the question on limiting participation: No, not deliberately, but it does have that useful effect. It limits it to those who can be bothered, and who are more likely (certainly not guaranteed) to have thought through what they are going to say.

To the suggestion for online meetings: See above paragraph then check a selection of serious replies to virtually any topic on ukCaving.

Click to expand...

Anyone who suggests online meetings probably has no experience of multi-participant conference calls. Dealing with half a dozen people is a serious pain in the arse, even when the technology actually works. When it doesn't, it's hell.

And, as has been said elsewhere, using a bulletin board like this for a serious discussion simply won't work.

Maybe not what the original poster was getting at, but when I had a problem regarding permission to bring spoil to the surface at a dig (down to single farm payments, cross compliance, waste regulations etc.) I gained some opinions from this forum and gathered a few prominent local diggers in a pub to discuss how to proceed. Plus consulted DCA Access rep (Dave Webb at the time). We didn't manage to change the situation, but we have maintained good relations with the farmer and good access from the course of action we did take.
I also posted a question on selling stal recently on here - the replies all said the same thing, and confirmed what course of action I should (shouldn't) take.

The fact that ten cavers may all say different things isn't a reason not to ask around in my view, often they will agree. This forum has a reasonable cross section of the UK caving community, an open letter or article in Descent or speleology is another (albeit less instant) way. Then there's attending committee meetings. Your views may change based on something you hadn't considered before, or you may still stick to your original viewpoint (but perhaps feel more justified about it).

If you don't ask you'll never know is my motto.

Chris - why do you ask ?

And why would you expect consensus ?

If you asked the 'caving community' if it's a good idea to fill Swildon's with concrete, I would expect an unequivocal answer.

But if you asked a simple question like what's the best caving lamp, then I wouldn't, much less so for (to take a random example) whether Scotland should be independent.

Is the 'caving community' being collectively asked a question it needs to find consensus on?

Consensus, Caving, Community, -- Tripple Oxymoron 

JasonC said:

Chris - why do you ask ?

And why would you expect consensus ?

Click to expand...

I'm not asking personally, just posing the question - because the concept/suggestion crops up from time to time (the most recent example being here http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=16422.msg215651#msg215651 ).

My belief is that the premise that you can gain a consensus from the wider caving community is false for these reasons:
* A workable method of enquiry and response is probably unachievable
* The idea of there being a caving community appears to be a wraith
* A single outcome consensus from a group of cavers is a risible expectation

Cap'n Chris said:

My belief is that the premise that you can gain a consensus from the wider caving community is false for these reasons:
* A workable method of enquiry and response is probably unachievable

Click to expand...

Perhaps I should have worded it "consider the opinions of some other cavers and interested parties before making a decision" - there are a number of workable methods of doing this.

* The idea of there being a caving community appears to be a wraith

Click to expand...

Not if you define community as:
The condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common:
the sense of community that organized religion can provide

* A single outcome consensus from a group of cavers is a risible expectation

Click to expand...

I disagree - (oh, no that proves your point!   
It does depend on the issue at stake though.

We should also consider the opinions of the "narrower" caving community (narrower of mind or body!) 

My post in jest appears to be quite close to reality, then.

Why do we have so many physical meetings or is it to deliberately limit the participation ? Online meetings ??

To the question on limiting participation: No, not deliberately, but it does have that useful effect. It limits it to those who can be bothered, and who are more likely (certainly not guaranteed) to have thought through what they are going to say.

Click to expand...

I think the reason there are so many needlessly lengthy procedure driven committee meetings to make decisions that affect the wider caving community can be summarised by the statement...

People who ENJOY verbose and procedure driven meetings feel that decisions are best taken BY those who enjoy procedure driven and verbose meetings...as their input is obviously more valid and important than those who don't enjoy them/are intimidated by the atmosphere/haven't the time or money to participate...

jasonbirder said:

Why do we have so many physical meetings or is it to deliberately limit the participation ? Online meetings ??

To the question on limiting participation: No, not deliberately, but it does have that useful effect. It limits it to those who can be bothered, and who are more likely (certainly not guaranteed) to have thought through what they are going to say.

Click to expand...

I think the reason there are so many needlessly lengthy procedure driven committee meetings to make decisions that affect the wider caving community can be summarised by the statement...

People who ENJOY verbose and procedure driven meetings feel that decisions are best taken BY those who enjoy procedure driven and verbose meetings...as their input is obviously more valid and important than those who don't enjoy them/are intimidated by the atmosphere/haven't the time or money to participate...

Click to expand...

I think you are wrong. I have attended many, many meetings in my time, both to do with caving and in numerous other contexts. While it is true to say that one can leave a meeting sometimes satisfied with what has been achieved, I have yet to find anybody who organises and attends meetings just for the hell of it. That's why people like Chris and myself do the time and then get out. I haven't attended a CSCC or BCA meeting in years.

Peter Burgess said:

My post in jest appears to be quite close to reality, then.

Click to expand...

Did you mean this one?

Was this the post you meant?

Peter Burgess said:

First of all you ask the people you can be confident will give you the answer you want. Then you decide you have probably asked enough people to have come to a sensible democratic solution. And then you tell everyone else.

Click to expand...

An open question on the forum, Descent, at a regional council, or BCA is hardly selecting a group that are all going to agree with you (or each other)...