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WHERE THE CAVES ARE - The Caving Regions => Rest of The World => Topic started by: Jpasch25 on February 13, 2017, 06:09:53 am

Title: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Jpasch25 on February 13, 2017, 06:09:53 am
Me my friend have found some caves and this one is by far the best. Sits right about OK sized waterfall fed by the cave . It's in limestone and the hole or "tube" is 3'-3' and we made it to about 50 yards in when we came to an opening. Could this lead to a bigger cavern or will it be hard to tell .
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Jpasch25 on February 13, 2017, 06:12:17 am
Also
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: NewStuff on February 13, 2017, 06:41:23 am
It's hard to tell from pictures, but the roof and sides look *very* flat. I would be thinking Mine, not cave.
At 3' 3" or so, I'd be thinking heavily silted up to the point where you sink knees, feet of roof falls, it's very old or it's a coal mine. Any of those sound familiar?

Just a note:- If it's the latter, you should have a good read up on the many ways a coal mine can kill you. A lot of mine explorers will not go in them, and the ones that do have some very, very specialised (not to mention expensive) safety equipment to ensure they come back out again afterwards.

Where is this? PM someone if you don't want to broadcast it.

Whatever it is, you're not the first there. It looks like someone's put their name in the left centre of your first picture.
To give you a better idea of what it is, or if it "goes", we need more detail.
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: droid on February 13, 2017, 01:59:13 pm
General location would be useful.....
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Flotsam on February 13, 2017, 03:06:44 pm
By a waterfall? Looks man made, a spillway? It could be part of a dam or water power installation
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Speleotron on February 13, 2017, 07:01:04 pm
It looks like there's mine carts or something in the second photo. Old mines are dodgy even if you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Jpasch25 on February 15, 2017, 10:48:15 pm
It's near Alton,IL. There is no silt what so ever only fine amounts of sand. The walls look to be created by water, there's many holes in the walls and they twist and turn like a creek also they are jagged rocks all over the walls like high points from erosion. I'm not an expert on terminology. It has really clear fresh water coming out and I tested it with hardly having any contamination asuch as I could do with a home tester. It's positioned about 60-80 feet above the river. The rock is limestone . It seems to be occupied by a raccoon but we only crawled back maybe 50 feet or so to this opening. And in the tunnel were two cone shape shafts that were about 7 foot high. It's in a cliff face under a mansion. Could this just be a karst spring or maybe still a mine. If so the mines here in the area were blasted with charges not tunnels that amall. We would like to explore it,but just wanted opinions and knowledge.
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Kenilworth on February 15, 2017, 11:34:06 pm
Alton, Illinois? If so...
There are many caves, including some significant ones, in Monroe County, a little to the south, and MO has many caves, including the famous one in Hannibal, to your NW. So you are certainly in an area where caves are feasible geologically. You seem to be describing a natural cave to me. Is the limestone thin-bedded, (are there many horizontal cracks in the cliff face, how far apart are they)?

If you can get some specific coordinates to me via PM, I can track down local cavers who will be able to provide any known background on this site.

But it will be more interesting and informative for you to simply explore the cave yourself. Be careful not to hurt yourself or the cave. Helmets are good to protect from bumps and falls, but moving slowly and carefully is the best way to stay safe. Since there is an active stream, look for signs of flooding, and avoid getting too deep when rain is forecast. Other than that, caving is mostly commonsense stuff.

If you're in one of the UK Altons, sorry to have rambled, but the last paragraph still applies.
Enjoy your explorations!
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Kenilworth on February 16, 2017, 03:31:38 am
Also, have a look at this:
http://isgs.illinois.edu/sites/isgs/files/maps/coal-maps/mines-series/mines-maps/pdf-files/mines-map-madison.pdf   (http://isgs.illinois.edu/sites/isgs/files/maps/coal-maps/mines-series/mines-maps/pdf-files/mines-map-madison.pdf)
There are mine entrances marked near the location your pm indicated, but their type is not specified. Video of horribly vandalized "huge caves" nearby appear to me to show stone quarries: https://youtu.be/HrsTWqaVv1M  (https://youtu.be/HrsTWqaVv1M)

Do try to some more photos when you go back, and I'll work on getting some firsthand info from the experts local to IL.


Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: crickleymal on February 16, 2017, 07:09:15 am
Coincidentally I will be in Madison possibly late April for 5 weeks. The date's not finalised yet. I was asking on Aditnow about mines but didn't get any detailed responses. Unfortunately that PDF doesn't seem zoomable on my tablet. Send me a PM and maybe we could meet up?
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: crickleymal on February 16, 2017, 09:03:43 am
Having said that it's Madison Wisconsin just north of Chicago that I'm going to. And that pdf does not seem to work very well on the laptop at work either. Really slow
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Kenilworth on February 16, 2017, 12:07:43 pm
The pdf is slow, but useable, for me too.

Coincidentally I will be in Madison possibly late April for 5 weeks. The date's not finalised yet. I was asking on Aditnow about mines but didn't get any detailed responses. Unfortunately that PDF doesn't seem zoomable on my tablet. Send me a PM and maybe we could meet up?

Is this to the OP or myself?
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Alex on February 16, 2017, 01:22:16 pm
Why not ask on the American forums, there is only a few from the USA on this one. Surely they will know?
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Jpasch25 on February 16, 2017, 01:48:30 pm
Kenilworth has been helping alot and I've tried the us forums but on my phone I can't access them. Unfortunately I am in Madison county in Illinois. I will be posting updated pictures for you guys this Saturday.
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: mikem on February 16, 2017, 07:30:19 pm
Michael Portillo has just been visiting coalfields in southern Illinois on BBC2...

Mike
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Jpasch25 on February 16, 2017, 09:47:45 pm
Yeah there is coal mines around where I live in bethalto,IL and scattered throughout . Where I'm adventuring is mostly limestone mines around the area and some coal mines but those aren't near thisarea when I was looking at mine maps from various dates. I'll get better pictures for everybody !
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: crickleymal on February 16, 2017, 11:37:02 pm
The pdf is slow, but useable, for me too.

Coincidentally I will be in Madison possibly late April for 5 weeks. The date's not finalised yet. I was asking on Aditnow about mines but didn't get any detailed responses. Unfortunately that PDF doesn't seem zoomable on my tablet. Send me a PM and maybe we could meet up?

Is this to the OP or myself?
The OP, although if you're local to Madison WI then you too
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Jpasch25 on February 17, 2017, 02:45:36 am
Also this might be a very far shot unless glacial deposit is this far down Illinois but I have a gold pan and I took two hand fulls of the sand that was in the curves of the water flow and found a bunch of black sand but no gold at all. Why would there be magnetic black sand in the spring or natural water outlet.
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: AR on February 17, 2017, 09:29:14 am
That sand will be the iron mineral Magnetite (Fe3O4), so there's a source of that somewhere upstream it would appear.
Title: Re: Need to know what this is.
Post by: Kenilworth on February 17, 2017, 10:35:32 pm
Jpasch,
I have several emails out to IL and MO cavers. I feel certain they will have some information for you soon. In the meanwhile, enjoy your explorations Saturday and keep your eyes open. Don't let the excitement of being in a cave distract you from the fact that caves are fragile and ancient, and are a unique window into fragile, ancient, and unique parts of karst ecosystems. While you have every right to explore and learn about them, it would be an awful waste to unnecessarily damage them for the sake of adventure. Forgive me for the lecture, taking care of places is a special interest of mine.