Well, as I am laid low by a virulent little bug my mind has been roaming (nothing unusual there...)
Over the last few years there has beena lighting revolution, from the days of carbide for the big trips and big lumps of heavy metal with tungsten filaments we have raced through halogen bulbs without pausing and into LEDs The early ones were very dim but would give enough light to get you home. Battery advances and breakthroughs in LED manufacture now mean we can have oodles of superbright light for ages. So whats the problem? Well, even with the old tungsten head sets, being looked in the face wasnt fun, and now it is downright painful. Perhaps as a cure for the perceived need to carry the sun into the depths of the earth, offenders could be forced to use a miners safety lamp, or a tea light in a jam jar. This would teach the difference betwen needs and wants, and also to look where they are going! It might just save my eyes...  Am I just a grumpy git or anybody else got problems with going lampblind?

With you on that one Brains, even in halogen days it was bad enough, dangerous too if you got dazzled in the wrong location (eg., tricky traverse--).

I only get issues with Newbies. Once they have been told (or even dazzled themselves) they tend to stop.

I find a "lights out" when you get away from daylight upon entry also reduces the need for uber-bright lights, short of photography in big chambers.

The good old days of an oldham brick with pet glow worm. or a patzl dim rated to the limit of daylight - can you still get those "flat" batterys? Mate I havent seen for years now has alkali burns from a leaking ex MoD NiCd or NiFe block - were they ex Navy? Got some original unopened goon suits in sealed packs somewhere, bet they have perished!

bograt

dangerous too if you got dazzled in the wrong location (eg., tricky traverse--).

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Reminds me of a trip to the Siebenhenste Cave in Switzerland, where I figured I'd try and get some 'candid' (i.e. unposed) snaps of cavers. So I set up my camera on an easy but exposed  traverse, and waited for our guide and mentor, the Belgian caver M. Spinoy, to come into range. I took a shot and he said,' Fooking sheet, are you trying to keel me?' Not my finest hour.

Another downside to modern lights is that you can actually see your surroundings. The first time I did Oxlow Hole was years ago, on a stinky; I've been back since with an Oldham, no problem. But when we went back the other year with decent modern lamps, we could see hanging death above us in West Chamber . . . . ignorance is bliss, eh?'

Thought they were called Petzl Glooms?  Unless of course you bought the expensive Formula 1 Super-Dooper Halogen bulb!
Anyway just as bright as an FX2  :-\
The warmth and comfort of a carbide lamp when in the depths of no-where really is missing in today's lamps. I quite liked the rather faint roar they made and what you could see when eyes acclimatised.
Still at least with using lithium cells there's the risk of fire and explosions of the good old carbide days 
Is the amount of lumens in lights these days really a pissing contest?

ZombieCake said:

Thought they were called Petzl Glooms?  Unless of course you bought the expensive Formula 1 Super-Dooper Halogen bulb!
Anyway just as bright as an FX2  :-\
The warmth and comfort of a carbide lamp when in the depths of no-where really is missing in today's lamps. I quite liked the rather faint roar they made and what you could see when eyes acclimatised.
Still at least with using lithium cells there's the risk of fire and explosions of the good old carbide days 
Is the amount of lumens in lights these days really a pissing contest?

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Pissing contests regarding lights are nothing new - cast your mind back to carbide days when your generator ran out of water in a dry cave 

tamarmole said:

ZombieCake said:

Thought they were called Petzl Glooms?  Unless of course you bought the expensive Formula 1 Super-Dooper Halogen bulb!
Anyway just as bright as an FX2  :-\
The warmth and comfort of a carbide lamp when in the depths of no-where really is missing in today's lamps. I quite liked the rather faint roar they made and what you could see when eyes acclimatised.
Still at least with using lithium cells there's the risk of fire and explosions of the good old carbide days 
Is the amount of lumens in lights these days really a pissing contest?

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Pissing contests regarding lights are nothing new - cast your mind back to carbide days when your generator ran out of water in a dry cave 

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Pleasent memories of climbing out from the pseudo syphon in the Berger, tuck the old generator down inside the suit for a super buzz of warmth and energy. Once you learned to live in peace with it carbide was wonderful. I am now an ex smoker but I always tried to light at least one from my lamp on a day out. Never had to pee in it though.
As for the Gloom or Dim, I suppose it depends on who you caved with, but I think the red bobbin was always known as the zoom...

Nostalgia is not what it used to be.
I still have my carbide lamps but dumped the NiCads etc. They were a pest really. Continually rotting out the cable. I think originally they were developed for submarines. Saw one or two nasty burns too along the way. Was reasonably happy with the Petzl range until The Frozen Deep came along than I really had to upgrade to the Scurion which I must say is still going well after four years of weekly use. I have a hand torch of 20,000 lumens. I guess that might make you blink a bit. I want to try it out together with the Olympus camera's Live Composite Mode. Digging has again taken over so not much in the way of photo trips at the moment. I do use the Scurion on full power for digging. Just got used to that amount of light I guess. We dont seem to bother each other much with dazzle as you get used to not looking directly at folk.

I am not in the least nostalgic for old lamps.  Carbide did have an attractive element of danger and excitement, but they really did stink, were apt to go out at inconvenient moments and there was the waste to dispose of.  The Oldham batteries were heavy, always stuck in thrutches and squeezes, and if they didn't, the cable got snagged on a flake.  And when the charge dropped, they were apt to go from good light to no light in seconds, leaving you covered in confusion.

To my mind LED lights are the best thing to happen to caving since electron ladders.  I don't have a super-bright one myself (too tight!) but if I did, I would have it turned down most of the time (batteries don't grow on trees, you know!) but having the option of properly clear visibility can't be a bad thing, can it?

Sometimes you don't want to see the amount of space below your feet...

However, for lumens per ? I can't knock the zebralight.

Mike

I've recently been getting used to caving using the dimmest mode on my Phaethon Dual.
It's been quite a revelation. Although it's of little use for route finding, it's more than acceptable for normal caving and  I quite like the way the darkness closes in.
If I need more light I can simply change mode; but in caves I know this hasn't been necessary.

Why am I doing this? Expedition...
The low mode 1 setting lasts 2 days on a pair of 18650 batteries. The 'normal' mode 2 is far brighter and a lovely light for caving, but only lasts 12 hours. I can carry spare batteries, but I need to be able to go underground for several days at a time and there is a limit to the number of spare battery sets I'm prepared to carry.

I've got 3 lamps. A Fellows MS oldham conversion, a Fellows Trigon conversion and a Scurion 1600.

Fellows Trigon is the best lamp for seeing things and photographing things a mine. Scurion is nice for "caving" trips.

Basically lamps distill down to being either wannabe fellows' or wannabe scurions.

The 'downlight' mode on the Dragon 1800 (Roy Fellows lamp) is good for talking in groups without blinding people or indeed reading surveys without blinding yourself. Downlight mode = no beam, just floods, which are angled strongly downwards (the intention is to create light at your feet while you walk looking forwards with the beams - the downlighter are always on).

The Old Ruminator said:

I have a hand torch of 20,000 lumens.

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Sorry friend, no such thing.

Beware the advertising BS!

I'm with Roy on this one, I have a 1200 Lumen flashlight (sorry, hand-torch) and that is just like a car headlight, 32000 would melt any plastics nearby and as for the heatsinks!

interesting thread on this -

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?356983-32-000-lumen-light-So-who-s-calling-BS-on-this

I produce a lamp that does 6K and its sustainable for about 5 minutes. They are in high demand!
However this is combined output, 3K of beam plus 3K of flood from bare emitters.

For what its worth, if anyone wants a very powerful handtorch that does what it says on the tin, I would go for the Fenix TK75. There is a guy selling them on eBay for ?115. Fenix claim 4K lumens and I believe them, they do quality.

I am experimenting with a 6K beam hand lamp and if successful may produce to sell. However it will rum off a separate belt mount battery pack.

royfellows said:

For what its worth, if anyone wants a very powerful handtorch that does what it says on the tin, I would go for the Fenix TK75. There is a guy selling them on eBay for ?115. Fenix claim 4K lumens and I believe them, they do quality.

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Fenix are good. I have several, including a TK35, another good product.

Also have time for NiteCore.