Just Do It or Consult first

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
A couple of recent threads:-

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17325.msg228047#msg228047
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17331.0;topicseen

got me thinking about when it is right to take the initiative and when it is best to seek advice, inform others, ask some group to take action. There would seem to be some obvious cases, e.g.

  • if it's your dig you get on and do what you've got to do, hopefully in an informed and sensitive way

  • if it's something like restoring the Providence or Lancaster entrances then the effort involved would seem to dictate that a reasonable degree of consultation has to be done

However what are UKCaving's views on whether an individual should just take action, be that putting in a bit of conservation tape, replacing a fixed aid or rebolting a route?
 

topcat

Active member
Possibly a question of scale?  Replacing a fixed rope for example has no additional impact, other than to improve safety, so just do it.  Operations that clearly impact on others need consulation or at least notice.  The Lancaster Hole improvments are a good example of middle ground, ie a popular route being out of use for a short while whilst work is going on.  Giving folks the heads up was good.
Re bolting a whole cave?  Maybe depends on how good you are with a drill.  I can't see folk complaining if you do a first class job, but if you mess up without consulting first.........!!!!
 

martinm

New member
If it's near a public footpath or on access land, (esp. if it's a small job) then you should just make it safe asap. your regional council will probably help with costs. If it's your dig and someone has an accident and you haven't taken reasonable precautions to leave it in a safe condition then you would be legally liable. If it's a big project then you'd need to recruit some help, maybe via your local conservation officer. If something needs re-bolting and it's not an exploratory situation contact the equipment officer of your regional council and get their advice and maybe assistance. If it's re-taping just run it by  your local conservation officer first to check the best way to do it. If it's on a SSSI and you're not altering or affecting monitored features then you won't need consent off them. If you're doing a major alteration to a monitored cave on a SSSI, say an entrance, then you would.

It's all common sense really. Safety of the public first, then protecting features of interest by whatever means have been previously agreed. If I go down a cave and find that some taping has been trampled or whatever, I will just sort it, I have  had to do it on a number of occasions in caves in the Peak.
 

cavermark

New member
I'd say there's no harm in asking around for advice (and assistance perhaps) in most situations, even if you think you know what you are doing. I wouldn't take it upon myself to start cleaning stals or putting in bolts unless I was sure I knew what I was doing - I wouldn't want to cause more harm than good (or incur the wrath of other cavers).  Delaying is easy, reversing some things is impossible (eg. cans of worms  ;) ).  Things like bolting have reasonably established best practices, which are worth checking.
Replacing a bit of trampled tape is fairly obvious, taping off somewhere from scratch is worth consultation for the best techniques (eg. not using the red and white hazard tape that decomposed everywhere, etc.).
Particular clubs or groups often "manage" certain caves, especially digs, it's courteous to run stuff by them (they might already be planning to sort the problem).
And of course you can ask around then ignore all the advice (if you're the government!).
 

nearlywhite

Active member
That list is quite out of date - Gwynedd CPC went bust 14 years ago. A couple other clubs no longer exist or have 'moved on' from managing certain sites and some are claimed by multiple groups... To quote SamT #canofworms

I'd go to the regional council before you tread on people's toes. Who knows, they might even fund it!
 

Tony_B

Member
TheBitterEnd said:
However what are UKCaving's views on whether an individual should just take action, be that putting in a bit of conservation tape, replacing a fixed aid or rebolting a route?

Consultation, every time, in the examples quoted above. Some people's idea of what constitutes sensible installation of conservation tapes differs from mine and I am fed up with seeing caves taped like they are flippin' show caves.

Fixed aids have proved, at SWCC at least, hugely controversial because there are those who want a fixed rope or chain on every minor climb or traverse, they will defend this long and loud and start screaming about 'safety' with no idea of the concept of sporting caving. The policy at SWCC has been to convene a small sub-committee of interested cavers as a 'fixed aids working party' and this at least moderates the more extreme views from either side of the argument.

Rebolting a route? Again, everyone has their own idea of what constitutes a sensible route and headstrong individuals can't be allowed to cut loose with a drill and a bolting kit to install their preferred option. 
 

topcat

Active member
Tony_B said:
Rebolting a route? Again, everyone has their own idea of what constitutes a sensible route and headstrong individuals can't be allowed to cut loose with a drill and a bolting kit to install their preferred option.

Whilst this makes some sense, how do you intend to 'police' it?  Head strong individuals are, err, head strong!
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
That said I do lean towards Tony_B's view. It's not about policing and there is never going to be perfect situation.
 
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