Water Tippler Design

Lampwick

Member
Has anyone got a design for a water tippler?

The device I'm wanting to build is one that fills a bucket or tank from a small flow that tips over when it's full to give a flush of water.

I'm told there was one in Cadbury Crawl (Peak Cavern) and another in Merlin Mine (Stoney M), so if anyone's got a sketch they'd be willing to share it would save me reinventing the wheel (and avoid any Auto-Cad C.of.G faff).

Ta.
 

AR

Well-known member
If there's space enough, you could perhaps build a miniature flop-jack engine, like the ones that were in Deep Ecton? Pivoting beam, counterbalance weight on one end, tank of the other with a hinged door opening inwards, string on door of tank attached to roof. When there's enough water in the tank to make that end drop, the string pulls the door open (which would previously have been held closed by the weight of water), the tank empties and the counterbalance weight returns the tank to the filling position. Ask me in the pub tonight if you want a sketch....
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
There is a drawing of such a "flopjack" on page 119 in the BCRA book "Caving Practice & Equipment" (1991, Ed. D Judson) - maybe in PDMHS library?

However this is slightly short on detail, so here's a few practical tips.

Use a cylindrical plastic tub. It needs an axle, which is conveniently made out of threaded rod (10 mm to 16 mm diameter, depending on the size of flopjack and therefore the weight of water). Positioning of the axle through the tub is important; it needs to be:
* above the centre of gravity when the tub is empty (so it swings upright after emptying).
* below the centre of gravity when the tub is full (so it tips rapidly).

The above is achieved by positioning the axle slightly below the halfway position and adding lead weight to the base of the tub. (I generally use a long narrow strip of lead flashing secured around the base of the tub's wall with good quality duct tape - you can of course screw a weight to the base but this creates unnecessary holes which must then be sealed and it means the tub doesn't sit flat on the floor during storage in the garage.)

The axle is held in position through holes in the tub wall with nuts and large washers (on each side of each hole - i.e. you need 4 nuts and 4 large washers). You also need to add 4 rubber discs cut from an old car inner tube and position these under each washer on each side of each hole; this will seal the holes very effectively.

You also need to make a frame; I generally use three pieces of 70 mmx 45 mm wood (the old "3 x 2") fastened together with a pair of coach bolts. This allows the frame to be folded into a tight "Z" shape for transport underground. But you need to add some sort of locking mechanism to make the frame rigid when set up. (I normally have predrilled holes and use an additional wood screw at each joint.) You can of course make the frame from other materials (e.g. Dexion?) but wood is generally durable enough for 2 or 3 years continuous use at least and is easy to work with.

For "bearings" I drill a large hole through the base of each leg of the frame and stuff a piece of plastic pipe through in which the threaded rod axle sits loosely. There are various ways to secure this plastic pipe in position, from just an interference fit (not recommended) to inner tube loops stretched over it and doubled a few times, to cementing in place to more complex screwed devices. Because the frame can be articulated it can be assembled around the axle onsite then locked (with the wood screws) such that the axle cannot then escape during the hundreds of reciprocations which you hope will happen. The plastic pipe "bearings" should be a significantly larger diameter than the axle to minimise the possibility of it becoming jammed in muddy conditions and to ease assembly.

The frame is hung from two attachment points in the cave roof (or on the walls) by tying it up with bits of polypropylene rope (I generally use the 5 mm or 6 mm stuff - or thicker if the flopjack is an unusually big one). Use knots which are easy to untie to allow fine adjustment, to achieve optimum positioning.

I think that's about it. Such things tend to benefit from a low tech approach as this seems to be more durable in a cave / mine environment and it means that if trouble shooting becomes necessary it's often easier to bodge up a low tech device.

It's best to do some trials with the device at home before deployment so you're sure it works. This can provide hours of entertainment - well, for the neighbours at least!    :LOL:

Enjoy . . . . . . .
 

bograt

Active member
If the one in Cadbury Crawl is still the original, its been there about 40 years!! :blink:
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
bograt said:
If the one in Cadbury Crawl is still the original, its been there about 40 years!! :blink:

I think it may well be.

Ben Bentham made great use of flopjacks to deal with the sediment in Treasury Chamber from the Fawlty Towers dig. This moved an impressive amount of material (many tens of tonnes, eventually). They're extremely useful devices; the best thing about flopjacks is that as you're relaxing in the pub, the project is digging itself.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Forgot to mention; I think that diagram in the BCRA book mentioned above was drawn by the late Mr.P.B.Smith and is based on the flopjack at Wigwam Aven in Peak Cavern.

Lampwick - I think the old Cornish miners made great use of large flopjacks (holding many tonnes of water) at certain locations. It might be worth perusing various books on the Cornish mines for further ideas?
 

Pegasus

Administrator
Staff member
Hi lampwick, if you get one made would you post a video of it working? - would love to see it in action!  ;)
 

AR

Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Forgot to mention; I think that diagram in the BCRA book mentioned above was drawn by the late Mr.P.B.Smith and is based on the flopjack at Wigwam Aven in Peak Cavern.

Lampwick - I think the old Cornish miners made great use of large flopjacks (holding many tonnes of water) at certain locations. It might be worth perusing various books on the Cornish mines for further ideas?

The mine flopjacks were pretty big, but they were lifting pump rods so had to be! There's a contemporary drawing of the Ecton one reproduced in various books.
 

Pete K

Well-known member
bograt said:
If the one in Cadbury Crawl is still the original, its been there about 40 years!! :blink:
I don't think it 'flops' any more, too rusty. I do flip it by hand every time I pass by though.
 

bograt

Active member
Pete K said:
bograt said:
If the one in Cadbury Crawl is still the original, its been there about 40 years!! :blink:
I don't think it 'flops' any more, too rusty. I do flip it by hand every time I pass by though.


:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:, would that be for the edification of those behind you in the crawl?
 

Mark

Well-known member
Quite simple really,

Get a builders plaster mixing bucket

http://www.mad4tools.com/white-plastic-plasterers-bucket---28-litre-14308-p.asp?gclid=CLPuxtjprcYCFUuWtAodbNoCnw

Drill two holes 165mm from base and insert 12mm thread bar through

11403428_10206768321236908_8734362300842702001_n.jpg


Secure bar with nuts and washers, I used rubber washers from the end of 3/4 compressed air hoses to seal the hole, tighten fully and use an M12 eye nut on each end with enough bar through to stop it turning out.

19783_10206768356797797_7417565908379005670_n.jpg


Clip karabiner into slings, tied to whatever

11666055_10206768367838073_514169945004471502_n.jpg


Put an M12 bolt and washers through base with another eyenut and clip whatever weight you need, to bring it back upright when empty.

10277655_10206768375678269_3002589420524502100_n.jpg


Away you go
 

Lampwick

Member
Mark said:
M12 eye nut on each end with enough bar through to stop it turning out.

Good idea for the pivots.  Is the metalwork BZP (zinc plated) or have you gone for stainless?

The problem I'm facing at the moment is how to collect a series of dribbles together to make a decent water feed.  I don't have the luxury of an un-metered domestic supply  ;)

 

Mark

Well-known member
Lampwick said:
Mark said:
M12 eye nut on each end with enough bar through to stop it turning out.

Good idea for the pivots.  Is the metalwork BZP (zinc plated) or have you gone for stainless?

The problem I'm facing at the moment is how to collect a series of dribbles together to make a decent water feed.  I don't have the luxury of an un-metered domestic supply  ;)

Stainless, but its just surplus gear i had kicking around.

The thing is tipping every 3 minutes I can hear it as i lay in bed, very satisfying. :)
 
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