Having sabotaged earlier opportunities for meaningful exchange, I'd like another chance. I would like to hear your ideas, and I will take them seriously (and silently). First, let me offer a premise: I believe that caves should and can be better cared for, and that the two biggest obstacles to cave conservation are overuse and misuse, or, stated another way, selfishness and ignorance. If you disagree with any or all of that premise, by all means say so. Otherwise please share any thoughts about ways that these or any other conservation obstacles can be overcome. My hope is that there are more practical things that I and we can do, now, that will make at least a small positive impact.

Thank you,
JK

Kenilworth said:

Having sabotaged earlier opportunities for meaningful exchange, I'd like another chance. I would like to hear your ideas, and I will take them seriously (and silently). First, let me offer a premise: I believe that caves should and can be better cared for, and that the two biggest obstacles to cave conservation are overuse and misuse, or, stated another way, selfishness and ignorance. If you disagree with any or all of that premise, by all means say so. Otherwise please share any thoughts about ways that these or any other conservation obstacles can be overcome. My hope is that there are more practical things that I and we can do, now, that will make at least a small positive impact.

Thank you,
JK

Click to expand...

You don't give up, do you? Here's a prediction fr the direction of this thread...

Ignorance is sorted by education. It's self-evident how to combat it, and we've been over this, repeatedly. You can't stop selfishness unless you lock up every single hole in the ground, banning all caving, which is exactly what you seem to want to do. Human nature is what it is, some people are douchecanoes, no matter if they are undreground or on top of a mountain.

Now, you can respond  as usual by replying with some form of dolling up the idea you have about drastic reduction or elimination of actual caving as something other than empire building fuckwittery.

I would add 'external pollution' as an obstacle

A small example: Sc Avalon has discovered a cave in Belgium ('Grotte des Emotions') which is gated and conserved in the way avalon conserves caves. Including two  protection states (Ramsar Wetland and Csis). However there is still some pollution coming in via the streamway which carries debris/pollution from further uptstream. So to protect the cave even better conservation should start above ground by placing debris collectors and water purification systems. Nowdays a lot of streams are still polluted by uncontrolled sewer outlets from houses and small villages. Also pollution from farmers is sometimes a problem.

This is however not a small obstacle and mostly it is very difficult, as cavers, to do directly something about it. Therefor it is from big interest that clubs or caving federations ar in close contact with (local) government to work on these subjects. 

Dagobert

I think you are being unfair and overly dramatic.

Firstly you don?t appear to be accounting for the fact you are trying to dissuade ?active cavers? on the most prominent and ?active? caving forum in the UK to be less active.

Secondly, I don?t think you have given any credit to the people within the UK caving community who work hard to ensure preservation is key. And, there are many examples.

Most (all?) clubs have conservation within the constitution ? some have it as THE number 1 remit.

Some caves are considered fragile and are ?locked down? (some are not even published so most of us don?t know they exist).

A lot of caves are gated to minimise traffic (noted especially in the Mendip area).

A (large) number of caves are ?leader led? to protect and preserve the caves.

Measures are taken within caves to assist cavers with their decisions (such as conservation tapes to protect areas).

Some caves have the number of visitors restricted.

Some caves are sacrificial lambs to prevent traffic in better examples.

Blimey, if you had read a fraction of the ?debates? on here you would see the arguments that have raged between those who want more and easier access Vs. those who don?t (who cite conservation as one of their defending reasons).

It is unreasonable to believe you can micro-manage an entire caving community. It is even more unreasonable to micro manage active cavers into not caving at all.

It is true that nature has created many wonderful things. It is also sadly true that nature has destroyed many beautiful things (and will continue to do both). Humans are curious and we want to see those beautiful things. Sure, we will leave evidence of our visits like sheep leave their wool attached to fences in the wilderness. Sometimes we may even damage something (by accident or not) but that is the nature of humans.

Of all the arguments I have seen with cavers arguing ?rights and wrongs? ? I have yet to see any caver (friend or foe) wishing to disrespect any cave. Of all the differences we have between us, looking after caves is one trait we all share. And, for that, I respect everyone on this forum.

You should too.

Ian

Jackalpup said:

Of all the arguments I have seen with cavers arguing ?rights and wrongs? ? I have yet to see any caver (friend or foe) wishing to disrespect any cave. Of all the differences we have between us, looking after caves is one trait we all share. And, for that, I respect everyone on this forum.

Click to expand...

Absolutely right.

I can see what Kenilworth is getting at, and logic suggests he is correct, but conservation/preservation, if it is to succeed needs to be pragmatic.
And his suggestion isn't.

Jackalpup said:

It is true that nature has created many wonderful things. It is also sadly true that nature has destroyed many beautiful things (and will continue to do both).

Click to expand...

This is something that is possibly frequently overlooked, how self destructive nature itself can be.

My main area is mines as all know, and I have been concerned about the activities of off road bikers at Cwmystwyth. A couple of years ago a freak rainfall did a huge amount of damage in the mill area, more than the activities of off roaders could ever do

This really made me think.

Kenilworth said:

Having sabotaged earlier opportunities for meaningful exchange, I'd like another chance. I would like to hear your ideas, and I will take them seriously (and silently). First, let me offer a premise: I believe that caves should and can be better cared for, and that the two biggest obstacles to cave conservation are overuse and misuse, or, stated another way, selfishness and ignorance. If you disagree with any or all of that premise, by all means say so. Otherwise please share any thoughts about ways that these or any other conservation obstacles can be overcome. My hope is that there are more practical things that I and we can do, now, that will make at least a small positive impact.

Thank you,
JK

Click to expand...

You quote the two biggest obstacles to cave conservation as "overuse" and "misuse". I hope you consider what follows as an effort to be constructive.

Here's an analogy which may help distinguish between the two. I own a very fragile clockwork device which has been in constant service for over a Century. It still works perfectly because it's been used sensitively and intelligently by all those who have owned it. (I know this because the person who gave it to me has had it in his family since it was new, around the time Queen Victoria passed away.) So this device has certainly been overused - but never misused, hence it's still in excellent condition.

Applying this to cave conservation, it's easy to see that misuse is far more serious a threat to caves than overuse, provided the use by cavers is carried out intelligently. This is why I've always believed that the best thing the caving community can do is to ensure that all newcomers are educated about the fragility of caves, their scientific value - and the crucial need for their respect. This should be lesson number 1. Get that right and many of the problems which occur from time to time would soon begin to disappear.

There are those on here who have quoted examples (probably with justification in some cases) that merely educating cavers has not been successful. So let's collectively work to improve that vital early education. Because any alternative is unacceptable.

See me post about the new "Minimal Impact Caving Guidelines" in another conservation thread.

Jenny P said:

See me post about the new "Minimal Impact Caving Guidelines" in another conservation thread.

Click to expand...

Kenilworth - I think you will find the UK to be pretty conscientious about it's caves.

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=conservation_access:micg.pdf

Thank you for your comments so far.

Jenny- Thanks, I read the new guidelines when they were first made available. They are certainly better crafted than the US counterpart. If education is to be any sort of a conservation measure, material like this is a good place to start.

Dagobert- I have read very many of your posts dealing with cave conservation. I find them refreshing and inspirational. I also see them as evidence that improvements can be made in the US, in the UK, and elsewhere.

Droid- You are correct. I need, if I want to keep talking about this, to get down-to-earth. Can you offer any practical, sensible ideas for improvement?

I find myself in agreement with a lot of the points raised on this (and previous threads relating to the same subject) and I also find myself saying FFS to others....

I think the our friend across the pond has the right idea, but maybe not the right approach, it is difficult from the written word and I believe his heart is in the right place so let's give him the benefit of the doubt and applaud him for raising this very serious issue..



As a certain Mr Spock once said ?Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.?

So EVERYBODY has an EQUAL right to visit ANY cave/mine, in the same way that EVERYBODY has an EQUAL right to walk through a valley, paddle along a river, climb a mountain, dive a lake etc..?


Whilst I agree that some systems do warrant protection in the form of limited access via permit to minimise traffic therefore wear and tear, I do NOT believe that they should be exclusive - if we take the stance that overuse now will reduce the pleasure of future generations, we wouldn't step outside of our front door...and what a waste that would be..
we do not know how things will change in years to come anyway, caving might die out as a sport/hobby, especially as the current generation seem to be more at ease living a virtual existence via their laptops/tablets/smartphones (though Pok?mon Go seems to fly in the face of that thought!), and Nature might well take this decision out of our hands, what with the "extreme" conditions we have witnessed in recent years.

Nothing stands still - "The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change." (Banks/Rutherford) seems apt.


The problem with conservation is where to draw the line, some parties maintain that we should limit activities such that they will still be available for "our grandchildren's children" and others are more inclined to "enjoy it while it is there",mountains are to be climbed, lakes to be swum, caves to be erm....caved



Should we leave nature to "get on with it"???

lyrics by N Peart

"There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the Maples want more sunlight
And the Oaks ignore their pleas


The trouble with the maples
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?


There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the oaks, just shake their heads


So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw"


And somewhat worryingly, I subscribe to both WWF and RSPB, can't do right for doing wrong...

Love these;

cooleycr said:

As a certain Mr Spock once said ?Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.?

Click to expand...

There was a one time counter-argument by the very person Mr Spock said that to which was ?Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many or the few?

I think parallels to both are found within the caving community.  ?

cooleycr said:

Nothing stands still - "The sands of time were are eroded by the river of constant change."

Click to expand...

Also used by Professor Brian Cox in his documentary covering entropy (the science that everything reverts and degenerates).  Although he was obviously not talking about cave conservation, he was generalising that everything that forms will be subject to change and will ultimately revert back to its basic constituent elements (he likened a sand castle on a beach in a breeze- then suggested that was analogous of the entirety of the universe).

You could draw the conclusion that as much as we accept the value in conservation, it is worth our while to see it, visit it and enjoy while we still can.

cooleycr said:

"There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees?..

Click to expand...

Pretty much all of Hemisphere?s was built around the principal of ?The trees?. The entire A side is a historical lesson in mythology concluding with a new God of ?Balance? (Cygnus).


Three very interesting citations ??



Ian

Of course quite a few stalwarts of this forum are no longer able to cave on a regular basis

& we still don't actually know what is most important to preserve in a cave (it probably isn't the formations as they can regenerate)...

Mike