Camera advice please

craige

New member
Am after some advice on a camera - I often take a DSLR underground with strobes (with mixed results, but occasionally they are okay). But its quite a lot of hassle taking all the gear and takes time on trips to setup.

So wondering about for those trips when I do not want to carry too much or slow things down about having something smaller ie a compact camera. Probably using a small tripod and then light painting.

I am appealing for advice as to what others are using. My thoughts are that ideally it should be fairly rugged and slightly waterproof would be very useful, or alternatively cheap and second-hand so a bit disposable if it does break it isn't the end of the world. But would like to get some decent results and need to be able to have a reasonable amount of manual control including iso, and shutter speed including longer exposures. Ideally with good sensor size and low light capability. I know I am probably asking for the impossible - but what are the options and compromises?

Thanks in advance for the collective thoughts.
 

Alex

Well-known member
I managed to break my Olympus. My Lumix however, has survived for a long time, though the lens can do with polishing.

What I take is my Lumix, a couple of small handheld lights to replace flashes and a ?2 small tripod I bought from Amazon. I then use those lights and light painting to take shots. This all fits in one of those small otter boxes (the torches can double as redundant lights and I often carry them in my pocket).
 

ogofmole

Member
I use a Olympus Tough TG2 and a single remote flash fired with Firefly3, works well on club trips as I take all my shots whilst on the move. I only take the DSLR on specific photography caving trips.
 

ZombieCake

Well-known member
I suppose the first question is how much do you want to spend?  Then add a bit more!  I wonder if you are really looking at two systems here.  For some of the damper / muddy / tighter / miserable / wish you were in the pub bits then something like the Olympus Tough or a compact is probably pretty good.  For something a bit less extreme have you looked at premium compacts or mirror less system cameras?  Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, Sony all make good mirrorless cameras.  Panasonic (Leica), Fuji and Sony make really good premium compacts.
For me for DSLRs it's Pentax all the way as they have weatherproof bodies and weatherproof lenses at reasonable prices. Their kit lenses are weatherproof unlike some other brands.
Mirror less: the discontinued Pentax Q series was very compact and can get nice pictures, but has limitations on the sensor size.  These days I use an Olympus Pen-F and OM-D E-M10 with Olympus and Sigma lenses.  Absolutely lovely cameras. I can also use my old Olympus Zuiko lenes. (Still use Olympus film cameras a lot, try Ilford XP2 black and white film as it can be developed in normal C41 colour chemistry at the likes of Boots and Jessops).  For premium compact I use a Leica D-Lux 109 as it has a 24mm equivalent f1.7 lens. Fantastic travel camera. It's essentially the same as a Panasonic LX100 with a few tweaks.
I was at a seminar recently and one presenter has gone over to Fuji mirror less from Canon DSLRs as no client could tell the difference (this was certain fashion shots, and in the next breath he said he also used Leica medium format, but for fast action sports and long telephoto you're still looking at Nikon and Canon DSLRs).
Sensor size and lens quality are more important than mega pixels.  Indeed too many pixels on a  small sensor can be counter productive in low light as each pixel is less sensitive as it's smaller and so more prone to noise.
Hope that makes some sort of sense...
 

mudman

Member
The performance of the TG4 has been covered elsewhere so just thought I'd add that I can attest to the toughness of it. I dropped mine from the Wire Traverse in OFD1. Was lucky to find it in a pool after it bounced off the walls alll the way down and it is still working perfectly.
 
I use a SONY Alpha 200 and opt for long exposure.  Bought it 2nd hand off another Mine Explorer.  I've had it years, drowned it twice and it still works well.
 

blackholesun

New member
I'll break this post into a few sections. First, the cameras that I would recommend:

The cheapest way that I know of to get a camera with full manual control is to get a Canon compact from ebay then use CHDK with it. This is a touch fiddly, but not too bad once you've read the instructions. CHDK is a program that runs from the SD card, does not modify the camera in any way and allows you to access many more features than normal.

For example:
Raw photo recording: allows much greater post processing and for the white balance to be set afterwards.
Manual focus: helpful in the dark of caves
Manual exposure: full control of the shutter speed (vital for use with flash), aperture and ISO
Manual flash: control the flash power output
Timelapse, bracketing, panoramas etc.

If that's too much of a faff (and for those not well versed with computers, it will be) then quite a few of the Sony DSC-W compact series offer manual exposure times, ISOs, focusing and apertures. Get one for ?15 - 20, keep it in a food bag in a small pelicase and replace it when it eventually breaks.
 

blackholesun

New member
Second, the lighting:

I'd then recommending pairing the camera with a thryistor controlled flashgun, a piece of 3mm thick IR pass plastic, and an optical trigger. Glue a piece of the IR plastic over the on board flash so that the mist isn't lit up and the image becomes cloudy. Connect the optical trigger to the flashgun, set the flash for f2.8, ISO 100 and point the flash sensor at the subject. Set the camera for f2.8, ISO 100, 1/500s, min flash power and fire away.

When the shutter button is pressed the camera opens its shutter and fires its flash. All the visible light, except a dull red glow, will be absorbed by the IR plastic. The infrared light will pass through and some will be incident on the optical trigger which will then cause the flashgun to fire. While the flashgun is emitting, its sensor will be monitoring how much reflected light it is receiving and will stop the flashgun emitting when it thinks the exposure is correct. The cameras sensor then will close and all this happens within 0.002s.
 

blackholesun

New member
Third, the reasoning:

Using a modern camera at base ISO with a thyristor flash means you don't have to worry about motion blur, camera shake, correct exposure, digital noise, white balance, or sensor size.

As an example for the last point, the wildlife nature photographer of the year competition was won this year by using a GoPro
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2016/oct/18/2016-wildlife-photographer-of-the-year-winners-in-pictures#img-3
... which have just about the smallest sensors out there. As long as you can get a lot of light to the small sensor and don't expect huge post processing latitude, then they're fine.

If you want to use LED's for lighting, then yeah, you'll likely want a bigger sensor, a better camera and a higher ISO to make the most of the limited number of photons. A small tripod will also be useful and it's worth bearing in mind that a ISO 100, 5s exposure with a led torch is much noisier than a ISO 100, 1/500s exposure with a flash.
 

Vulcan

Member
I have a Panasonic lumix FT25 (although that has been discounted, they now sell the FT30). I am very happy with it.

I normally take quick hand held pictures using a custom duo (V4) to provide the light and they good enough for uploading to the internet etc. Its even easier when someone in the group has a scurion (or equvalent).

As its a tough camera (drop proof, water proof etc) I just put it in my undersuit pocket and then get it out when needed. I recently took it though Darren entrance series in that way and it was completely fine. Even better you can get a new FT30 for ?100, a bargain.
 

blackholesun

New member
Lastly, if you do want to do light painting then one neat way is to take multiple images on a tripod then overlay them on photoshop/gimp and choose the lighten only layer mode. (This can also be done very quickly with ImageMagick). This is essentially what the Olympus tough cameras do and helps to avoid overexposure.

This light painting can be done with an a led light or flash gun. I've only one example of using a flash for light painting, my not very impressive attempt of the GG main chamber, but you get the idea:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127423544@N02/15465822219/in/album-72157649020489235/lightbox/
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
Horses for courses. I like action un posed shots so the TG's serve me fine. I actually have not used a 35mm camera in a cave for many years. As well as taking photos you also have to think about how you want to archive and show them. Ideally I would like to see more here rather than just links to other sites. This forum still falls way behind others in terms of images that I use. Yes, there is Flickr and Facebook but sadly little comes up directly here. So money where mouth is. The old battered TG 2 images from yesterday's digging. Never forget the fun and the action as it can get rather staid if you just do set up shots.

Vurley, Mendip.













Just a tiny bit of headlamp ambient light coming from below on the last one. I could have asked for more and used my own Scurion for some of the others. Basically I was in the way and there was no time for finesse as I was supposed to be helping. ( Gloves on/off all of the time ).
Nearly all of mine get a little post shot editing so it's as well to be handy with that. I tend towards the brighter image whilst Mr O'Doc seems to prefer them slightly darker. That has to be a personal preference.

Anyway you cant have a photography post without photo's can you ? :unsure:
 

Diba

New member
Has anyone tried Sony a7s underground? I would love to see some results of that camera in cave environment.
 
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