Simon Wilson
New member
A big thank you to Bob for all the hard work he is obviously doing.
His recent new topic that was blocked was exactly what I wanted to hear about when I asked the question about what was going to be discussed at the 16th Aug meeting.
I understand how the democratic structure of the CNCC works and in common with a lot of people I am concerned that the democratic structure of the CNCC does a poor job of proportionally representing the views of cavers; one club = one vote hence all the 'flags of convenience' micro-clubs. Clubs with over 200 members have the same voting power as micro-clubs with three members. I think that is wrong but at least the structure isn't complicated and I understand it.
As I have said before I have very little to do with the BCA but from the little do know I get the impression that it's democratic structure is quite haphazard and ad-hoc amalgam of disparate bolt-on parts. I would guess that the lack of democracy in the BCA has been discussed at length somewhere but I don't know about it. So if this is going to make you yawn stop reading now.
Correct this if it is wrong but I have heard that the CNCC represents more cavers than all the other regional bodies put together. Yet the CNCC has the same voting power as the CDG which is just a medium sized specialised caving club.
I imagine that many of those "grubby rebellious non-conformist cavers" are the sort who spend their time challenging themselves working their way through 'Not for the Faint-hearted' and are too busy caving to take any notice of the BCA. But if they are a member of one of the large northern clubs their voting power is diluted to a point very close to total disenfranchisement. Whereas, somebody down south might be involved in the ASCT, the WPCST and the DCUC and so have voting power multiplied by being in several of these disproportionally powerful voting bodies.
I think this whole CRoW fiasco over the last twenty years has shown us that there really is a "massive disconnect between the sports representative bodies and the members they are supposed to represent". But the problem is more than that, there just simply is no democratic structure that could ever represent the views of cavers in any way that would merit being described by the word democracy.
I'm aware that I'm exposing a few prejudices here so maybe it's time for another thread about something else that has been on my mind. Maybe on another day.
His recent new topic that was blocked was exactly what I wanted to hear about when I asked the question about what was going to be discussed at the 16th Aug meeting.
I understand how the democratic structure of the CNCC works and in common with a lot of people I am concerned that the democratic structure of the CNCC does a poor job of proportionally representing the views of cavers; one club = one vote hence all the 'flags of convenience' micro-clubs. Clubs with over 200 members have the same voting power as micro-clubs with three members. I think that is wrong but at least the structure isn't complicated and I understand it.
As I have said before I have very little to do with the BCA but from the little do know I get the impression that it's democratic structure is quite haphazard and ad-hoc amalgam of disparate bolt-on parts. I would guess that the lack of democracy in the BCA has been discussed at length somewhere but I don't know about it. So if this is going to make you yawn stop reading now.
damian said:Indeed. The BCA AGM asked the C&A Committee to deal with the issue and it will begin its work on this on 16th August. The Committee has on it one (voting) representative from each of the following Organisations:
Regional Councils - Cambrian, CNCC, CSCC, DCA and DCUC.
Constituent Bodies - ACI, ASCT, BCRA, BCRC, CDG, CHECC, NAMHO and WPCST.
Anyone with views on CRoW who is a member of any of the above, should speak to their representative. Individuals should send their thoughts to Andrew Hinde, the Conservation & Access Officer on conservation [at] british[hyphen]caving[dot]org[dot]uk.
Hopefully in this way the decisions that are reached will best reflect the views of BCA's membership.
Correct this if it is wrong but I have heard that the CNCC represents more cavers than all the other regional bodies put together. Yet the CNCC has the same voting power as the CDG which is just a medium sized specialised caving club.
jasonbirder said:.........
I've no faith in caving's administrative bodies actually going as far as pushing FOR the wishes of grubby rebellious non-conformist cavers...
But that's merely indicative of the massive disconnect between the sports representative bodies and the members they are supposed to represent...
I imagine that many of those "grubby rebellious non-conformist cavers" are the sort who spend their time challenging themselves working their way through 'Not for the Faint-hearted' and are too busy caving to take any notice of the BCA. But if they are a member of one of the large northern clubs their voting power is diluted to a point very close to total disenfranchisement. Whereas, somebody down south might be involved in the ASCT, the WPCST and the DCUC and so have voting power multiplied by being in several of these disproportionally powerful voting bodies.
I think this whole CRoW fiasco over the last twenty years has shown us that there really is a "massive disconnect between the sports representative bodies and the members they are supposed to represent". But the problem is more than that, there just simply is no democratic structure that could ever represent the views of cavers in any way that would merit being described by the word democracy.
I'm aware that I'm exposing a few prejudices here so maybe it's time for another thread about something else that has been on my mind. Maybe on another day.