Cavers - why do we bicker about access so much?

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
An interesting thread popped up on Adit Now recently.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?t=11724

It relates mostly to the 'access in private or democratic groups' thread but highlights the fact that threads about access nearly always end in a load of bickering.  Can't really deny that can we?  Read the thread above for yourselves but it suggests that cavers and mine explorers are very different in this respect.  I was particularly intrigued by this comment on the Adit Now site,

"Having had a foot in both camps my perspective is that the caving scene is dominated by clubs and committees whereas the mine exploration scene tends to be more free booting and based on smaller less formal groups. Any activity based on formal structures and committees will attract people who like that sort of thing and enjoy playing politics for the sake of playing politics. This leads to ego tripping and empire building which contaminates the whole culture as reflected on the CAL discussion on UKC."

Any truth in this?  Why do we bicker so much about access?  Cavers seem to have such opposing views it is hard to find any common ground.  Can anyone offer a solution?
 

Brains

Well-known member
I think the quote has a lot of truth. From the days Owd Simmie and the BSA politics has been a downside of organised caving. Add access control in to the mix, and then conservation and elitism as well, and argument is bound to ensue. Groups with a power in caving will always be resented by the rest who are fettered in their desire to go caving. Justification for the rules varies from good to bad, which begs the question why do we need rules at all?
The mindless destruction at Browns Folly, the damage to delicate formations, theft of artifacts, mineral collecting, over use, wear and tear, hazard to life and limb, stock and wildlife issues, landowner wishes, legal access, mineral rights... all and more are touted as good reasons by some, but to what degree should these considerations be weighted at a particular site? Big can of worms wihich seems to come down to people shouting I am right - you are wrong at each other, while NOT listening and with no desire to talk, find out the real concerns or see beyond their own little bit  :(
 

droid

Active member
There's a fair few that are members of both forums. Including a few that are quite feisty here, but more restrained on Aditnow.

Most of the situations quoted by Brains apply to mines, yet the discussions on AditNow tend not to degenerate into the drama-queen histrionics of some debates here, even though there's often the same people involved.

I think it's got more to do with the moderation and 'atmosphere' of the respective forums, but that's rather subjective and for the life of me I can't suggest why.....
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Hi people, I'm afraid the aditnow thread is my fault.

I started it to draw attention to the original thread on here re democracy and CAL because it was an interesting thread. I did not start that one but responded as a director of CAL.

I have now taken the aditnow thread into the area similar to this one. I did it on AN because I felt it could be discussed rationally by people who can show impartiality. I think that there are certain things that need bringing into the open and discussing in a rational manner without anyone 'coming from somewhere else' or starting a bun fight.

Finally I draw attention to my unanswered question which I do not need to repeat.
 

bograt

Active member
:LOL: :LOL: (y) (y) Nice one Roy  (y) (y)

I think a lot of the controversy comes from the misconception that there is some kind of 'power' in sitting on committees and trying to look after the caves and the interests of cavers, this seems to be generated by those that seek the power but have no interest in standing for a position, it is a long time that any position of 'power' has been contested on DCA, it's more a case of cajouling. ---
 

droid

Active member
There might be a 'big fish in a small pond' aspect, Bograt.

Thinking on, perhaps the reason for the 'difference' is that mine exploration has far more of a research/historical component than caving, which is largely recreational.....
 

Rhys

Moderator
The suggestion that mine explorers don't bicker about access is utter nonsense. There have been numerous particularly bitter threads on here regarding the Box/Bath Stone mines and Milwr Tunnel to name a few.

Certainly this forum takes a different approach to moderation than some of the others though. Here we tend to let arguments run - probably excessively so, at times! But some of the other forums delete posts and whole threads the moment they get a little bit fruity. It's a tough balance, but I prefer not to see debate stifled.

Rhys
 

droid

Active member
Rhys said:
The suggestion that mine explorers don't bicker about access is utter nonsense. There have been numerous particularly bitter threads on here regarding the Box/Bath Stone mines and Milwr Tunnel to name a few.

Rhys

On here, yes, and I suspect it's a 'mine explorer vs urbex' debate.
But not on AditNow. Why?

is it just the moderation applied or is there another reason?

Buggadifiknow....
 

bograt

Active member
droid said:
There might be a 'big fish in a small pond' aspect, Bograt.

I'm interested in this statement, please give some indication who you consider the 'big fish', and the whereabouts of the 'small pond' ?

Also, Rhys statement about moderation over there is interesting, any illustrations or evidence?, I have always considered this house as the commons and 'over there' as the lords?

Droid's comment about urbex is valid in both houses.
 

droid

Active member
I'd sooner not give out names. That's petrol on a bonfire.

The 'pond' is the number of people who are active or interested cavers.
 

bograt

Active member
droid said:
I'd sooner not give out names. That's petrol on a bonfire.

The 'pond' is the number of people who are active or interested cavers.

So that's the 'small pond', no need to give names, please give generic positions of those you consider to be 'big fish', considering that they're all volunteers who just want to look after caves and cavers. ---
 

Rhys

Moderator
bograt said:
Also, Rhys statement about moderation over there is interesting, any illusations or evidence?

Tricky. The thing with deleted posts and threads is that they're not there to be found! I'm only an occasional observer on other forums, but I have been aware of stuff being removed in the past. Perhaps people who regularly post or follow elsewhere might be better placed to comment.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Rhys said:
...... Here we tend to let arguments run - probably excessively so, at times! But some of the other forums delete posts and whole threads the moment they get a little bit fruity.....

Rhys


That is definitely true  ;)

Ian
 

Brains

Well-known member
Must admit I feel like a small voice in the wilderness at times, and have reccently decided to steer away from such bickering as far as possible - I do not cope well with constant... drama?
If I have been guilty of rocking the boat in the past then I apologise unreservedly, the only agenda I have worked to has been that which I felt was best and correct as an ethos and practice of underground exploration. If I have flogged my hobby horse too hard, well I suppose that is a symptom of not getting out enough?
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Its true about whole threads being deleted on AN, but they are usually postings by spammers like "Cheap kitchens" is a common one, then I post "These kitchens are junk, dont buy one" to wind up the spammer. Eventually it all gets deleted.
 

droid

Active member
bograt said:
need to give names, please give generic positions of those you consider to be 'big fish', considering that they're all volunteers who just want to look after caves and cavers. ---

Let's just say that whilst many volunteers do it for altruism, some do it for the perceived status and ill-conceived notions of 'power'.

That's my reading of it, anyway.

I tend to follow the old dictum that anyone *wishing* to be on a committee should automatically be debarred from ever being on one.
 

bograt

Active member
Which brings us back to the comment I made earlier about 'cajouling' ---

Also, I note that there appear to be a few misquotes attributed to me in the last few posts, - intentional or just a case of poor editing ?.
 

Brains

Well-known member
[pendant] "Cajouling" -  Is that something do with stealing/purloining high calorie food? [/pendant]
Sorry, I'll get me coat...
 
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