Caving fatalities

Bob Mehew

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
I was chatting with an acquaintance on rescue in general when he mentioned the 'golden hour'.  (Very badly injured people are most likely to survive if they are given medical treatment within one hour of the accident.)  I paused and thought - when was the last time a cave rescue team lost some one whilst bringing them out?  I have no recollection of any one dying after the rescue team reached them for many decades.  (Neil Moss is the only case which springs to my mind.)  Is that right? 

If so, is the concept of the golden hour valid in caving?  Or should the focus be on ensuring one's mates (as well as oneself) are trained to provide such support.  Or indeed just provide sufficient support for non crippling injuries to enable one to get out under one's own steam. 

I hope I am not tempting fate.
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
If I remember the poor bloke in Sunset Hole didnt make it to surface, and another died after being brought out of Mereghyll?
However, I reckon if you survive until the rescue get to you, you stand a good chance of getting out and surviving
From memory a lot of fatalities are down to drowning & heart failure, with hypothermia and some slips trips and falls getting a few as well. I would guess only the latter types stand a chance of being dealt with realistically by your mates  :(
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
If so, is the concept of the golden hour valid in caving?  Or should the focus be on ensuring one's mates (as well as oneself) are trained to provide such support. 
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Not sure whether GH is valid in caving because, as stated above, the likelihood of a rescue getting to the casualty in that time isn't likely in many instances. BCA award holders are required to be first aid trained and holders of a valid certificate; there is resistance to certification for amateur caving and presumably this extends to first aid training. Training generally seems anathema to many cavers. Not all, though. Frankly it seems a no-brainer to be prepared for situations which can easily be foreseen in a hazardous pursuit.
 
Beardy

Beardy

Member
My friend unfortunately passed away about 10 hours after being reached by the rescue, that was in Lost Johns' Cave in 1994.
Still seems like not long ago

maybe this will help?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_caving_fatalities

regards
Beardy 
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Thanks for the link - very useful, sombre, though.

It is interesting to note that taking a decade at a time, gives:

2015-2006: 10 fatalities
2005-1996: 10 fatalities
1995-1986: 26 fatalities
1985-1976: 26 fatalities
1975-1966: 28 fatalities
1965-1956: 16 fatalities
 
T

topcat

Active member
interesting trends too:

hypothermia pretty steady
natural causes trending up, presumably reflecting the ageing demographic of cavers
both drowning and rock fall bulging 60/70's
 
Bob Mehew

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Thank you for you replies and apologies for raking over what clearly is still a deeply felt wound Beardy. 

So to push the question on, what can one do to mitigate hypothermia?  If you have a moderate sized group, then placing others to lie along side the injured person is one thing.  Use of an ali blanket is another.  I recall someone claiming a candle is quite good if the place is draft free.  Not sure if there are some hi tech items; hand warmers seem too small and in any case surface warming is not good.  Although feeding injured people is usually frowned upon, what about giving glucose?   

I noticed in today's paper a Private Member's bill is to be presented to Parliament this Friday to promote teaching basic first aid in schools.  The item suggested it would be talked out by MPs who did not wish to change the school curriculum. 
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
For a group a "bothy tent group shelter" is far better than an individual bag or foil sheet, 4 people in one soon gets very warm and cosy, even without a candle for added heat
 
alanw

alanw

Well-known member
Wasn't there one fatality (Dales?) where the casualty died as he was raised into an upright position to haul him upwards?
 
HardenClimber3

HardenClimber3

Member
The golden hour really applies to severe trauma, and implies the initiation of treatment (control of blood loss - which can be internal - and fluid replacement) well beyond first aid (and even beyond an 'ordinary' hospital). The 'hour' is an artificial time window (obviously - 10 minutes is better and 10 hours worse) and the excess mortality from slow intervention is spread over an extended period (ie delay in rapid resuscitation can contributes to mortality seen several days later). There can be perverse outcomes if a full package of aggressive treatment isn't delivered, such as fluid before control of bleeding can increase mortality. This makes the concept very difficult to apply to a caving situation.

That's not to say first aid in the sense of cpr/control of bleeding/awareness of hypothermia (and the kit to do something about it) are not important, easily (relatively!!) achievable and effective.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
So to push the question on, what can one do to mitigate hypothermia?
Click to expand...

Main way of mitigating hypothermia would be to:

* Have a Plan B venue in case of poor weather.
* Look at the weather forecast and use the information it contains, rather than ignore it or selectively interpret it favourably to suit your Plan A trip.

Put simply, if the conditions aren't right, bin the trip(s). Even if you did go to 'all that effort' to get a permit.
 
T

tamarmole

Active member
Bob Mehew said:
Thank you for you replies and apologies for raking over what clearly is still a deeply felt wound Beardy. 

So to push the question on, what can one do to mitigate hypothermia?  If you have a moderate sized group, then placing others to lie along side the injured person is one thing.  Use of an ali blanket is another.  I recall someone claiming a candle is quite good if the place is draft free.  Not sure if there are some hi tech items; hand warmers seem too small and in any case surface warming is not good.  Although feeding injured people is usually frowned upon, what about giving glucose?   

I noticed in today's paper a Private Member's bill is to be presented to Parliament this Friday to promote teaching basic first aid in schools.  The item suggested it would be talked out by MPs who did not wish to change the school curriculum.
Click to expand...

I may be imagining it but I seem to recall some research that ali space blankets didn't work underground; perhaps someone less addled by the ravages of time could clarify.  Back in the 90s we were all encouraged to carry polythene survival bags.  I still carry one in my helmet.  I have only had to use it once but I was bloody glad I had it with me.
 
S

Speleokitty1

New member
Bob Mehew said:
So to push the question on, what can one do to mitigate hypothermia?  If you have a moderate sized group, then placing others to lie along side the  Although feeding injured people is usually frowned upon, what about giving glucose?   
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since they

Most cave rescue teams assume that all casualties will be hypothermic to some extent since they have normally been inactive for some time. Given the length of most cave rescues feeding the casualty is generally a good thing and it is a problem for the hospital to deal with if they need anesthesia.

Having waited 5 1/2 hours for a rescue team to arrive I was still quite warm wit the use of two space blankets, a balaclava and a heat candle. I then eagerly devoured every out of date Titan bar that was offered me over the following few hours. Titan bars are horrible but they tasted pretty good that night.
 
Bob Mehew

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Speleokitty1's response reminds me of the only time I was rescued.  We were flooded in and had to wait some hours.  The rescue team came down and offered us soup from a wide neck thermos flask.  Great I thought, until I drank it; it was cold and congealed in my stomach; UGH.  It turned out every one else on the way down had also partaken of the soup, so we had the last bit.  Served us right I suppose.

Ali blankets are in fact mostly polythene (or similar), so heat conduction is low and heat radiation is reflected back in.  Their bonus is they stop heat loss by drafts (heat convection).  But Brain's bothy tent idea is possibly even better, though the packed size is larger - possibly one for the tackle bag.
 
cavermark

cavermark

New member
A technique I learnt a few years ago was to use the thin polythene survival bags as follows (don't know if this is still current best practice but it seemed to work well and the bags are compact enough to carry on most trips.
1) Make a small face sized hole in the bottom corner of the bag.
2) Put the bag over your head with face poking out of hole, then put your helmet back on top.
3) find a position to sit  propped up with bent knees (use ropes, bags etc beneath you) then pull bag down over knees like a giant poncho.
4) A candle can be used inside the bag to generate some heat. (Carbide generators used to be great for this!)
It cuts out most convection/evaporation heat loss and is surprisingly cosy.
A group can huddle together in their bags for further warmth.
Group bothy bags are even more effective but a little more bulky to carry- one of the group needs a tackle bag. Whereas individuals can each carry a poly survival bag in a pocket (or helmet if u aren't worried about the compression space above the cradle).
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
Also worth noting don't try squeezing two people into those single bags and take your wellies off, otherwise you end up ripping it. I found that out in Ireby Fell when waiting out a flood.
 
A

AndyStuff

New member
I have been sat waiting for a number of hours in caves trying to keep warm.  I find foil blankets are generally no good, yes they protect from wind (and water) but this doesn't really have a bearing in some caves unless you are in a draughty cave or on a spray lashed ledge etc.  Foil reflects the cold not just heat so it can make a cold person colder in my experience.  I found a good way of keeping warm when immobile was to squeeze as much water as poss off undersuits etc, put my feet in a caving bag pull the cord close to stop hot air getting out and tuck in to a huddled position.  Rock is cold so again if you can find a nice sand bank etc great. The key to beating hyperthermia is dress appropriately for the conditions and time of year! I even once wrapped a rope around me as an added layer and to prevent cold from rocks.  I have even cocooned myself in carry mat that was used to protect dive bottles on the carry in and it worked great!  It could also be cut down in emergency and used as a splint and to protect broken bones.  My opinion use what you can!     
 
alanw

alanw

Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
If so, is the concept of the golden hour valid in caving?
Click to expand...

Just been watching Sid Perou's "SUNDAY AT SUNSET POT". At about 48:45 minutes there is a quote:
"He could only possibly have been saved", the pathologist said, "if he had been in a fully equipped operating theatre within an hour of hitting the pitch bottom".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_9CktsqOWM
 
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