Who represents me?

traff

traff

Member
I am a caver who chooses not to be a member of a club or the BCA.

I do not live in a caving region where I would expect to meet cavers, but have still met a half a dozen or more cavers in everyday life.
Not one of those cavers were in a club or the BCA. I find that quite a startling statistic.

Of course it could be a freak data set but none the less I believe it points to a significant number (possibly a majority?) of cavers with no say.

The BCA purports to represent all cavers but do I get a vote - no.

The application of CRoW to caving can only improve access for none club members.

I suggest the BCA has a duty to pursue the application of CRoW as part of its policy to improve access for all cavers.

The referendum should be open to all cavers irrespective of membership or scrapped.
 
Bottlebank

Bottlebank

New member
traff said:
I am a caver who chooses not to be a member of a club or the BCA.

I do not live in a caving region where I would expect to meet cavers, but have still met a half a dozen or more cavers in everyday life.
Not one of those cavers were in a club or the BCA. I find that quite a startling statistic.

Of course it could be a freak data set but none the less I believe it points to a significant number (possibly a majority?) of cavers with no say.

The BCA purports to represent all cavers but do I get a vote - no.

The application of CRoW to caving can only improve access for none club members.

I suggest the BCA has a duty to pursue the application of CRoW as part of its policy to improve access for all cavers.

The referendum should be open to all cavers irrespective of membership or scrapped.
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I agree the BCA should represent you just as I think it should represent someone who is part of a led trip for example caving for the first time. I was in a similar position when I started caving.

But voting is slightly different, the BCA is asking it's members to ballot, you have the option to join if you want a vote in future.
 
traff

traff

Member
Peter Burgess said:
What are you giving to the "system" in return for your desired representation?
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Peter, what I or anyone else has given to the system is irrelevant. It's a shame the diversionary tactics are tried so early on.

Quote from the BCA:

represents all those persons and groups with a genuine interest in caves, karst and associated phenomena, whether from a strictly sporting viewpoint, a scientific viewpoint, or a combination of both

It claims to represent all cavers and should do so.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
traff said:
Peter Burgess said:
What are you giving to the "system" in return for your desired representation?
Click to expand...

Peter, what I or anyone else has given to the system is irrelevant. It's a shame the diversionary tactics are tried so early on.

Quote from the BCA:

represents all those persons and groups with a genuine interest in caves, karst and associated phenomena, whether from a strictly sporting viewpoint, a scientific viewpoint, or a combination of both

It claims to represent all cavers and should do so.
Click to expand...

In order for BCA to be able to fulfil your wish you have to be in contact in some way.

So why not do what so many other cavers do and just join?

I agree, the data (in your first post) can't be considered at all representative.
 
Ian Adams

Ian Adams

Active member
Traff,

The BCA referendum is for BCA members and is asking BCA members if they would like their body to actively support (and press) CRoW access.

Non-BCA members cannot be part of that whether they cave or not. (This is the same for any organisation and it?s members)

I get your frustration and can say there are people fighting for you ? I can give an easy example;

The CNCC does not offer permits to non-BCA members (or even members who are not in a club) and that (let?s say, anomaly) has been challenged by some people (including me). Furthermore, I argued ?How would a non-BCA member even know that the CNCC exists or that a permit was required?".

There are people looking out for your interests.

:)

Ian
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
I was only asking a question, not trying to make a point.

Now I will make a point. If I want to be represented by a group, however loose that association might be, I feel I have a slight obligation to contribute something. If you don't feel that applies to you then say so. Not everyone will agree with you. Personally, I don't think the BCA should represent the interests of anybody other than those who contribute something to its operation, whether directly or indirectly. I have nothing against non-club cavers at all - it's a choice they have made, and just as I agree to cave within the rules and framework of my club as I chose to join it, so I think that those that choose to cave outside any membership body should accept the limitations that their choice puts on them. My club is under no obligation to represent the interests of non-members, although of course we may choose to do so, if it is to our benefit.
 
C

Chunks

New member
Sorry traff but it's like not being on the electoral register and then demanding a right to vote in an election.
Whilst I appreciate why some people don't want to be part of a club it's a decision you make and accept the limitations.

Hmm perhaps next time my car breaks down I'll ring the AA and request their services because they should represent all car drivers.
 
traff

traff

Member
The BCA by only balloting their members only represents their members.

I'll re-iterate, the BCA purports to represent all cavers.

Whilst the data set I've presented cannot be considered truly representative, it should not be dismissed out of hand. Whether you like it or not there is a huge number of unrepresented cavers out there.

I'm suggesting the ballot is in fact pointless as it almost certainly won't be a true representation of UK cavers. I strongly suspect the opinion within the unaffiliated will be a resounding yes, way out gunning the no camp.
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
My stance is that the BCA is wrong in claiming it represents all cavers. How can it do so, when it has no way of knowing who they are?
 
graham

graham

New member
The BCA can only represent members of the BCA. If a caver chooses not to join the BCA then he chooses not to represented by them.

Many moons ago, when BCA was being reorganised out of NCA we were repeatedly told that NCA could not represent all cavers 'cos it had no mechanism for individual membership. Well now it does so if the OP wants to be represented by it the onus is on him to join.
 
graham

graham

New member
traff said:
I strongly suspect the opinion within the unaffiliated will be a resounding yes, way out gunning the no camp.
Click to expand...

Suspect ain't good enough. Collect some data, if you can.
 
richardg

richardg

Active member
In Britain we are all expected if we drive a car on the roads to have car insurance..


To responsibly cover the possibility of accident where either we or someone else is hurt....

Those who chose to drive about without insurance are a liability to themselves and others.

Being an active caver and being a member of BCA and therefore buying insurance is just the same as the above.

Therefore BCA represents responsible cavers

Taff .... Do you drive? and do you chose not to buy car  insurance?....

Taff..... Do you cave and do you chose not to buy cave specific liability insurance...

 
Mark Wright

Mark Wright

Active member
I can understand traffs frustration. BCA does state that it represents all those persons and groups with a genuine interest in caves, karst and associated phenomena, whether from a strictly sporting viewpoint, a scientific viewpoint, or a combination of both.

Clearly it doesn't unless it is suggesting you don't have a genuine interest in caves unless you are a member of the BCA? It would be impossible to represent people it doesn't know about. Perhaps BCA should remove the words 'all those' from its statement.

Non BCA members therefore have a simple choice. 1. Set up an alternative National caving body that represents them or 2. Join the BCA and have a say.

If we want to shape the future of our pastime we need to do it from within and the only way of being able to do that is by being a BCA member and having your say.

The insurance issue mentioned by richardg is a completely different one. You are required by UK law to hold insurance for your car. I certainly don't agree that someone who didn't hold insurance cover for caving in the UK is irresponsible. 

Mark
 
badger

badger

Active member
how does anyone expect the BCA to represent them if the BCA don't know who they are, how many cavers do not belong to the BCA, 10, 100 a 1000. no one going to know as no one knows who they are.
the BCA can represent all cavers, but on a vote it can only ballot those who it knows are cavers.
maybe all those that are not in the BCA should write to the BCA stating there  preference.

but the best way is to join, what is there to lose, what is the problem in not joining.
 
R

robjones

New member
It would take only very a slight tweak of the wording of BCA's public statements to address this point.

It is instructive to read the wording of the CTC ("the national cycling charity") http://www.ctc.org.uk/about-ctc  and the BMC ("promotes the interests of climbers, hill walkers and mountaineers ") https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-mission-statements?s=5  , but neither claims to represent all individual cyclists and climbers - undoubtedly because, despite being the largest organisations in their sectors, they recognise that large numbers of active cyclists and climbers are not members.

I imagine that the present BCA wording  was adopted to give the Association weight when liaising with official bodies. The careful wording of the CTC and BMC's statements manage to convey similar weight whilst avoiding claiming to represent all cyclists and climbers.
 
D

damian

Active member
Traff, an interesting point well made. Depending on the outcome of the CRoW Ballot BCA may need to amend a section of its consitution next year. If so, we will also be looking at other parts to amend at the same time. I will add this to the list. Thanks.

Damian Weare
BCA Secretary
 
D

damian

Active member
I've just amended BCA's website to say "It represents individuals and groups with ...". Sorry for any confusion, traff.

Damian Weare
BCA Secretary
 
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