Interestingly,

A caving colleague having seen a web-link on what to do in the event of calling out CRO (here);

http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/info/rescue.html

A discussion/debate/argument ensued within our club forum with disagreements.

I would welcome comments and advice on;

1) What pro-active actions you should take as a "leader" ?
2) First aid ?
3) Incident action ?

(I am looking to establish accepted "norms" and criteria that would accommodate non-norms)



Ian

There's some scary, dangerous advice on that page.
Firstly, I'm not aware of 120 being an emergency number. 112 is the standard Europe wide emergency number.
Secondly, never call the local police station. Always ring 999 in an emergency. Assuming the station you've called is manned, it almost certainly won't be 24 hours.

The most up to date advice for calling cave rescue in South Wales is at http://www.smwcrt.org/j32/index.php/callouttopmenu

I concur with JessopSmythe

The correct procedure in the UK is dial 999 (or 112) and ask for the Police, when through be specific that you require cave rescue.

The only rider to this is that if you are ringing regarding an overdue party from outside that caving region, then it is worth asking the Police to transfer you to the force concerned. Past experience has shown that this is often easier said than done.

The work round is to dial 101 the national Police non emergency number as you are then given the automated opportunity to state the Police force with whom you wish to be contacted. The call will still be answered by the relevant Force Control Room 999 operator but not necessarily with the same priority as a direct 3 nine call.

JJ

In my (thankfully very limited) experience of initiating Cave Rescue via 999, the following approximate paraphrased sequence of events occurred:

"What service do you require?"
"Avon and Somerset Police, please"
(put through to Police)...
"How can we help?"
"I need to initiate a cave rescue please"
"You want the Fire Brigade for that: redial 999 and ask for the Fire Service"
"Sorry, no; cave rescue is done through you, the Police".
"Is it? I don't think it is. I'm pretty sure cave rescues are handled by the Fire Service"
"Really, no, it is done through the Police, trust me on this one"
"Hang on, I'll check with my supervisor"
_________

"OK, you're right, I'll put you through to someone...."

..........So, question for you: IF someone who is being polite and following instructions from the authorities was to do what they were told to do, they'd re-dial 999 and ask for the Fire Brigade. Any wonder the FB turn up to nearly every cave rescue?

Cap'n Chris I can sort of understand how this can happen in your part of the world.

To the best of my knowledge Gloucestershire CRG is the only CRO or MRT in the UK to have a Fire Service as their calling authority. The national message is however the same ask for the Police and insist on Cave Rescue!

... and British Cave Rescue teams are insured by the relevant Police force (as they are effectively acting as "agents" of the Police) so for this to be put in action, the call out must have a Police Incident Number.


It is also worth registering your mobile phone with www.emergencysms.org.uk/ . Then you can use SMS texting in a "999" emergency situation. Sometimes if the mobile signal is too weak to make a call an SMS text may go through.

If I am going underground with friends (experienced or not) or I am leading a club trip, I do the following;

Leave a note with a responsible person (I use my wife) noting;

1) Cave/Mine location (and name, Grid Ref if known)
2) Location of where my car will be parked (and the Reg number)
3) Expected time out
4) Number of people in the party identifying minors or inexperienced cavers

I include an instruction to wait for one hour to pass beyond the call out time (to allow for delays)

I include an instruction to ring 999 and ask for cave rescue.

Cave Rescue will need to know where to go and how many they are looking for. They may first look for the car (if the car is there they know you are still in the system).

..... is that a reasonable process or OTT ?


There is also a debate with regards to "First aid" - if an incident occurred underground and there was a "qualified" or "professional" first aider who administered first aid negligently causing a further deterioration (say, placing someone in the wrong recovery position after a suspension incident leading to "possible" (debatable) death) - would that attract the interest of HSE for criminal negligence ?

Ian

I include an instruction to ring 999 and ask for cave rescue.

Click to expand...

I think you should be asking for a call to 999 initially requesting Police, to then request Cave Rescue. A subtle detail but reflecting what has been already mentioned here. i.e. say "police" when asked "which service", not "cave rescue".

Jackalpup said:

There is also a debate with regards to "First aid" - if an incident occurred underground and there was a "qualified" or "professional" first aider who administered first aid negligently causing a further deterioration (say, placing someone in the wrong recovery position after a suspension incident leading to "possible" (debatable) death) - would that attract the interest of HSE for criminal negligence ?

Click to expand...

You may find this document useful: http://www.sa-cni.org.uk/uploads/4/9/5/4/4954631/the_legal_status_of_those_who_provide_first_aid.pdf

Ian,

Shouldn't your call-out time be just that - the time to call out the rescuers?

It should be based on expected length of trip plus allowance for possible delays.    Why then ask your "responsible person" to wait an additional hour?

I normally say "expect a call between x and y, and if you haven't heard by y then initiate a callout." That way, the person knows when to expect a call and make sure they have a phone to hand. That way the onus is on you to get the stand down call made in the window that you chose, and not leave the onus on the other person to think about when to call for rescue. You can make the gap between x and y whatever suits the trip - 30 minutes if you are only going a short way into the system, or a bit longer if it's a longer trip with more uncertainty on when you might get back to the entrance.

This has been done to death before. The clue is the term Callout Time.

Callout time = time when 999 is to be phoned for a call out. The people in dire shtuck in the cave will be RELYING on this happening as it has significant impact on their strategy/decision-making.

You do not need an estimated time out, or some weird formula to "wait for x minutes after a particular time window, unless its raining and then add another twenty minutes per person if it's a weekend" etc.... It's needless and prone to cause misinterpretation/misunderstandings. You only need a Callout Time. If you're out early, no problemo.

Agreed, however personally if I've planned an ETO as well as a Callout Time, it means that when I'm underground I remember the ETO time and work toward making it out for that. Then the Callout Time accounts for minor mishaps/chatting to other folk at the entrance etc.

The Callout Time is what you tell your "callout" but the ETO is what you actually try and aim for...

Peter Burgess said:

I think you should be asking for a call to 999 initially requesting Police, to then request Cave Rescue.

Click to expand...

Sorry Peter, that?s what I do and I failed to actually type it ? thanks for pointing it out.

Roger W said:

Shouldn't your call-out time be just that - the time to call out the rescuers?

Click to expand...

I guess that is why I am asking the question(s). I would agree with you Roger (and CapNChris and Spike). The reason I do it (and I am very happy to stop doing it) is that I thought it was the right thing to do having been told by more than one member of NWCRO that they will wait an hour beyond the ?time out? to allow for delays. If that is not so, then I?ll drop it. I am asking for standard etiquette/protocols because some web links (like the original one I put up) seem to conflict with each other and it has caused a debate within the club as to what is actually the ?right thing to do?.

(I also know of two fairly recent NWCRO call outs that were set into motion and then terminated because the party was late out ? the extra hour might have been a factor?)


Langcliffe ? thank you for the link which suggests a first aider could be in trouble in they act negligently ? it also states there is no ?Good Samaritan Law? in the UK offering immunity ? I thought there was ?

Ian

If you are looking for a definitive web link relating to Cave Rescue in the UK, try the British Cave Rescue Council at http://www.caverescue.org.uk/ .

Jackalpup said:

Langcliffe ? thank you for the link which suggests a first aider could be in trouble in they act negligently ? it also states there is no ?Good Samaritan Law? in the UK offering immunity ? I thought there was ?

Click to expand...

Not yet - one was promised in the Queen's Speech in June:

"A bill will be brought forward to provide that where a person acts heroically, responsibly or for the benefit of others, this will be taken into account by the courts."

The cave rescue and, indeed the mountain rescue, can ONLY be authorised to initiate a rescue by the police.
But if you had to call them out and also you knew the number of the person who organises the rescue team, its probably worth giving them a "heads up" call AS WELL as the official call via the police.

your time should be recorded as a call out time, then that is the time that a callout is initiated, you wouldn't want to be waiting an extra hour  if you did have an emergency situation

Cap'n Chris said:

Any wonder the Fire Brigade turn up to nearly every cave rescue?

Click to expand...

It looks good particularly if the cave is in a high profile area (Burrington Coombe or Cheddar Gorge) and it is also a Bank Holiday weekend.  If the weather is nice and there is a chance of overtime the site will also become a honeypot for the Hazardous Area Response Teams from all over.

On the other hand, if the incident occurs in the middle of the night on an isolated freezing hillside in North Wales, you might be lucky to get one tender there with a tea urn for those unfortunate enough to have driven half-way across Britain and spent an hour looking for the place only to be told that it was all over ages ago.

This guide by the resus council gives good guidance concerning the law, mainly concerned with CPR but equally applicable to other scenarios

http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.pdf