Just wondered what rules or restrictions (if any) the clubs that own huts have about children staying overnight...

Don't know about all clubs but i think that in a lot of clubs common sense is used.

Scout groups: Adults needed
Family Groups: parents needed

I can hazard a guess that clubs would warn you if not encourage you not to stay with kids when university caving groups are around.

best thing to do is probably to email the respective club that you want to stay at and see what their rules are in your particular case.

There are two clubs that I know that are very family friendly one is in South wales and the other is in Yorkshire.

As I recall if child (and that means any one under the age of 18, yes eighteen) is to sleep at a club hut between the hours of 2am and 6am, then either they must be accompanied by a parent or family friend or else by law the child must be looked after by someone who has been vetted etc for child protection matters under the requirements of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act of 2006.  From memory, it is a criminal offense to let an unaccompanied child stay.  So any one associated with the club / at the hut that night could well get clobbered, especially if they were in that line of business such as a teacher / scouter etc given they should know better.

I understand good practice by various organisations requires separate sleeping accommodation / toilets / washing facilities between the adults and children and also between sexes of children and so on.  Much simpler to ensure the parent / guardian pre-certifies that an accompanying adult is a family friend so as to avoid the application of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act. 

And on the same theme, clubs would be well advised to check the suitability of all groups seeking to book their hut to use with children, whether overnight or even during the day.  Else the person accepting the booking and the club could be in deep trouble if the booking adult turned out to be a pervert; recall the BBC and Jimmy Saville.

PS - kicking the child out at 2am would probably be viewed as child cruelty.

Bob, do you think it wise to make such statements from memory? Statements that are likely to put the heebie-jeebies up most club committees?

Can you substantiate your statements?

How does this sound?

Children are only allowed to take part in residential trips (those involving an overnight stay) if the parent or guardian is present throughout the trip. Children are allowed to take part in residential trips, as defined, if a Full Member acting in loco parentis has been nominated in writing by the parent or guardian and is present throughout the trip. The parent or guardian must be aware of the nature of the event or activities in question and their written authority should be clear on what permission is being granted.

.... and heebie jeebies are conspicuous by their absence here 

OFFS, Teachers, Scouters, Guiders, have all got CRB checks carried out on them, as long as hut wardens make sure they have, no responsibility can be placed on the club.

i read this as a parent wishing to take their child, nothing to do with groups or other children.

i took mine first mid week, for them to experience it when it was quieter

Any club that has dealings with u18s of any kind should have a Child Protection Policy. If the club has accommodation it is responsible for, the policy should cover this as well. If you want to know what a club's policy is, then it should be available on request. A CPP does not have to be a massive onerous restriction (depending on what the u18 dealings are) but it is advisable to have one.

I agree with Pete here. His is a balanced and measured response to the legislation. There does seem to be so much hysteria around this subject.

My understanding is that so far as caving clubs are concerned, volunteers (i.e. normal club members) who do not have regular contact with children are not require by law to have CRB checks. Some people choose to have a CRB check although not required by law, which is their prerogative.

Clubs should appoint a Child Protection Office. They should develop a Child Protection Policy. They should enact that policy which is largely a matter of education their members on what to do in various circumstances.

See BCA's Child Protection Info (looking a little dated).

And BMC's Child Protection Policy

Bograt makes a good point.

Re the OP, Alastair nailed it.

1. Even if we are, for example, only talking about the child of a club member, there still needs to be a policy of some kind. There is always the chance that a minor will be simply taken on board as "one of the group" - i.e. any possible vulnerabilities they have as a developing person may be disregarded by other cavers present. I suppose it would be the parent's responsibility to protect their child in such circumstances - for example, removing them from any "adult" behaviour they may not be comfortable with.

2. PoCA clearly spells out "abuse" as including "sexual", "emotional" and "physical" abuse and also "neglect". Neglect in terms of caving must be taken to include failing to ensure physical safety, adequate/appropriate nutrition and protection against hypothermia, drowning, rock-fall, injury through falling, etc.

So taking a minor underground, especially where the trip might be something of a physical challenge for the minor concerned, carries protection responsibilities beyond those of sexual abuse, which is where the focus seems to go most of the time when talking of abuse. How often have you been in a situation where you have consented to letting your son/daughter go underground in one group, where you might have opted to do something else? This may not be a problem - your club's policy should provide a means for this to be possible. This is a bit off the subject of accommodation, but has a relevance to the overall picture.

Isn't it more important to ask whether they'll do their share of the cooking and stand their round down t'pub?  :-\

Cookie said:

Bob, do you think it wise to make such statements from memory? Statements that are likely to put the heebie-jeebies up most club committees?

Can you substantiate your statements?

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Of course.  I used "As I recall" and "From memory" because I did no have access to the Act to cite the relevant parts.  To rise to your challenge, open up http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/47/pdfs/ukpga_20060047_en.pdf and 

As I recall if child (and that means any one under the age of 18, yes eighteen) is to sleep at a club hut between the hours of 2am and 6am - See Schedule 4 Part 3 para 10 (2)

then either they must be accompanied by a parent or family friend - See Sections 6 and 58

or else by law the child must be looked after by someone who has been vetted etc for child protection matters under the requirements of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act of 2006. 

From memory, it is a criminal offense to let an unaccompanied child stay.  - See Sec 8 

IMO the BCA policy and guidance is poor to crap - I twice argued with Dave J but he ignored me and you and others on Council backed his approach.  If you had read what I had gone to write, then my subsequent advice is entirely consistent with the subsequent serious comments.  But cavers need to be aware that it is a serious matter with the potential for them to end up in deep shit.  Child abuse is a very hot topic as you should be aware given the number of trials going on at the moment.  The caving world does need to wake up and do something but I have no expectations that neither you nor BCA will do anything to achieve that; rather your attitude seems to be to play it down as a non problem solvable with some fatuous writing on a piece of paper.  Well it is not.  Even in the 1990s I stumbled across a couple of incidents where in one case a person was warned off and another where they gave up to avoid the hassle of defending themselves.         

And for those who might try to claim the frequency exemption (Schedule 4 Part 3 Para 10 (1) - not more than 2 days in period of 30 days) which is not mentioned by Dave's guidance, then it does not apply to the 2am to 6am slot.  But it would apply to a child turning up for a day trip but only if no more than two such days occurred within a 30 day period.  (A point which Dave makes no mention off.)

graham said:

Isn't it more important to ask whether they'll do their share of the cooking and stand their round down t'pub?  :-\

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Is it not an offense for a child to attempt to purchase alcohol?  Or have you gone on the band wagon Graham?

Yes but the worst excesses of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act of 2006 were rolled back by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

Cookie said:

Yes but the worst excesses of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act of 2006 were rolled back by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

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So please cite which bits of the SVG Act that I cited were rolled back by the so called Protection of Freedoms Act.  My understanding was that despite the PR, little did get touched other than the processes around the vetting organisation. Or don't you know?  If so, please let someone speak who has taken the effort to read up the legislation and speak with various bodies without criticising them from a position of ignorance. 

Nofloods request was asking whether clubs had rules or restrictions around allowing minors to stay overnight. Inevitably, child protection is a major factor, and the debate around this has some relevance, but it wasn't the prime reason for the original question! So what about other clubs? The only chance Nofloods has of using our place is to join, or be the personal guest of a member, as we have a clause in the lease which basically restricts who can use the place.

I am a member of three clubs with huts.  The two for which I have detail to hand are generally quite welcoming but the detail is different.  Both charge less for youngsters. One has childrens' weekends when other members have to modify their behavior as well as permitting them to use the hut on normal weekends when they have to accept what ever goes on; the other club keeps them in a separate part of the hut.  Both require parent or an in loco parentis  person.  One permits children to use club tackle, the other appears to not do so. (Though I think what is actually meant is a child can't rig a pitch.)  I have fond memories of leading childrens' weekends but they fell apart as the kids grew up. 

I took my 15 yr old (a couple of months shy of 16) daughter along on a caving trip with a university caving club, the students were raucous and there were times I questioned my judgement on bringing her along but not because of thier behaviour...... I found my inner student  I was caught between being "so embarrassing" and " your dad is so cool", we had a great time followed by some even better caving the following day, so much so she wants to go again this weekend. I figure drinking and caving go hand in hand and if she wants to take up caving, she might as well get used to the social side of it! That said, I should have excercised caution in bringing her along as it could have gone horribly wrong, I (naively) thought it would be a civilized affair and she would have an opportunity to talk to marginally older youngsters about thier experiences with higher education and for her to chat to more mature students, she is however older than her years and enjoyed the experience, my middle daughter would have been traumatised...... Was a good night though!

I wonder (idly) how the YHA handle this sort of thing nowadays, at the age of 15/16 I would wander off quite happily to stay at a hostel somewhere bunked in with the general population. It would be odd if you couldn't do that now given that is what the whole thing was set up for.

I would say in response to the OP, ask the club you wish to stay at the hut of what their policy is - some will permit children to stay and have some sort of child policy in place, others will not permit children to stay. The whole child thing is a minefield now and understanding the legislation that goes with it does mean that some club huts will be explicitly adults only accommodation.

Having recently had the unfortunate experience of arriving at a club hut to find that the family weren't allowed to stay I'd just ask one thing, that any clubs who don't allow children to stay make this crystal clear on their web sites!