Hi,

Here's another conundrum.....

The current edition of Northern Caves, states that Whitewell Pot (Bowland) was explored by the NPC, but it doesn't give a date.

Having trawled through the archives i can't find any mention of this exploration. 

Does anybody know when the NPC did their exploration here?

Thanks
Beardy

Is there a date in PU?

I have a trace of a memory that the late Gordon Batty might have done some work there, so we're talking mid 1950s onwards. In the 50s & 60s there was a strong contingent of 'Pennine members from the Blackburn area which is quite near to the Whitewell limestone, so it'd not surprise me if they'd been involved.

I can't remember seeing anything about it in older NPC Journals but these are available online (c/o AERW's site - easily found with a search on "NPC Journals" or some such) if anyone fancies trawling through.

If no-one can come up with the answer I'll keep it in mind as I bump into older 'Pennine members and ask them.
(In fact, I'll send a message round on the NPC forum to ask.)

No help for the NPC side of things but this may help with dates, the OUCC Proceedings 3 (1964) mentions a visit and that it is listed in "Britain Underground". The author of the article states his first visit was April 1958 as far the sump, which had vanished by summer of 1960.

Well the survey is by N.J & P.W Crompton, if that helps.

The 1947 edition of PU indicates that it was first explored by the NPC. It also indicates that it had yet to be fully explored (in fact the depth is given as 20'!), which may indicate that it was explored post-war.

The OUCC survey was done by a different club 15 years later.

What date is Beardy after? Is it just the original exploration date (as in PU) or subsequent extension - which must be late 40s / early 50s? According to the OUCC article it is listed as 160' deep in BU (published 1953?)

It is likely that the first exploration and extension were one and the same, but that it was work in progress when the text for PU was written (say late 1946 to early 1947). We know that those original explorations were complete by 1953, but they were likely to have been completed soon after the cave was opened.

The explorations may well be documented in the early NPC Newletters, which are not online. It doesn't appear in the list of caves that NPC claim to have explored (http://www.pennine.demon.co.uk/NPC/ALPHA.HTM), but I suspect that the list does not include all their very early work (NPC were founded in 1946).

Not an answer to the question, but British Caving ( http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OFUVAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA108 ) gives another 1953 reference and poses another conundrum - what has happened to Crimpton Pot?

Martin Laverty said:

Not an answer to the question, but British Caving ( http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OFUVAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA108 ) gives another 1953 reference and poses another conundrum - what has happened to Crimpton Pot?

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Good question. Hell Hole is within the Whitewell grouping - so it could possibly be the same place with a different name, but Crimpton is about 2 kilometres from Whitewell Pot, so it's not likely.

langcliffe is right: Britain Underground has an entry for "Hell Hole, Whitewell (Also called Crimpton Pot) ... First explored N.P.C." No date given.

hi - i know nothing - but suspect the members of northern boggarts might [ partucularly anthony brown and peter monk ] - they did a lot of research and pete monk wrote some articles for the general press and caveing publications , in support of the natural england funded operation to stabilise and rebuild the entrance with a permanant safe entrance

just a thought

Cheers for the effort and thoughts so far -
Beardy

CPC Journal 1 (1) (1949) has an article (Dugdale) referred to in Northen Cave Handbook which describes exploration of the  caves on Hall Hill including Whitewell Pot.  They only got to the top of the first pitch which they thought had never been descended as there was a boulder in the way.  The article ends with the statement: "An attempt will be made at removing this boulder in the near future."  CPC 1 (3) (1951) describes the return when they reached the sump but they found three initials on the wall so they evidently weren't the first down there.  The lack of further references in Northern Cave Handbook until the OUCC one suggests that the first descent may not have been documented.  However the second article makes it clear that the boulder blockage was at the blind pitch straight ahead at the bottom of the first little drop and not the one following the route to the bottom.  The route to the bottom was wide open but hadn't apparently been noticed.  So the boulder blockage is a red herring and the pot could well have been descended by someone before 1949.

Credited to NPC in 1947 PU and NPC formed in 1946 so not a massive window.

First NPC publication = Report for 1947/48 so no point looking in NPC Journals or NLs.

Have you tried BSA stuff as most NPC were BSA renegades?

Andy

Why is this in the "Yorkshire" section of the forum?

cavermark said:

Why is this in the "Yorkshire" section of the forum?

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'Cos its north of Derbyshire - Gods own Kingdom !.

cavermark said:

Why is this in the "Yorkshire" section of the forum?

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Because the "Yorkshire" area on this forum is unhelpfully named. This is probably because loads of southerners refer to "going up to Yorkshire" when they actually mean "the Yorkshire Dales" or perhaps better "The Dales" (which spans various counties). When this point was raised previously the majority (generally of people not in this area) won and the name stayed as it is on here - and is still incorrect. It's a bit like referring to the Peak District as "Derbyshire" - some areas of Derbyshire aren't in the Peak District and some parts of the Peak District aren't in Derbyshire.

The Whitewell area is really in the Forest Of Bowland and I take cavermark's point - arguably this post might have been started in the "Other areas" stuff. Then again, would as many people have noticed it and tried to help by responding?

I still reckon a bit of thought regarding main headings on this forum would be worthwhile.

More on topic - That CPC Jnl.1(1) reference includes the intriguing sentence: "Down by the river and to the right of the Whitewell - Dunsop Bridge road there may be several resurgences, most of which, however, appear to be siphons." I know for a fact that Whitewell Cave was conclusively tested to Whitewell Resurgence - but is anyone familiar with any other resurgences down there?

(only teasing really..)

cavermark said:

(only teasing really..)

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As my mother-in-law often says ...

"Never ask someone if he is a Yorkshireman. If he is he will already have told you, if he isn't he will be offended"





I think the guide book got it right with "The Three Counties"