Just for you Graham.

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

Cap'n Chris said:

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I'd believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

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So you don't believe the majority of cavers have conservation to mind?

Correct. Correction: it's nothing to do with the majority; it only take one clumsy, nasty or ignorant soul to desecrate something permanently. I've met plenty of those in caving so yes, I'm sure open access would be a conservation disaster.

stu said:

Cap'n Chris said:

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I'd believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

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So you don't believe the majority of cavers have conservation to mind?

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Given the relatively low energy conditions applying in most parts of most caves, it doesn't require much more than a small minority of clumsy or venal cavers to do significant and long-lasting damage. In strict conservation terms, the best place to take novices would be the high energy environments of flood prone large streamways, where any impact that their presence has is swamped by the energy input from the water.

There may be other considerations, however, that make this unwelcome to many as a policy.

Cap'n Chris said:

Correct. Correction: it's nothing to do with the majority; it only take one clumsy or ignorant soul to desecrate something permanently. I've met plenty of those in caving so yes, I'm sure open access would be a conservation disaster.

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But by dint of that the only logical conclusion is all caving to stop. Which would be a pity.

Now we could probably agree that caving isn't stopping any time soon, yes? And we could probably agree that there are some caves which are entered when they shouldn't be, yes? In light of that, how to "train" cavers to be more conservation minded? Even for the systems that are technically open.

Ah, finally a place to discuss this.
I've been after an answer to this for some time.

For those who oppose open access to caving on CROW land:
Does restricted access lead to better conservation because:
a) Fewer people go to that cave?
b) The people who get permits are more careful?
c) Something else?

graham said:

stu said:

Cap'n Chris said:

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I'd believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

Click to expand...

So you don't believe the majority of cavers have conservation to mind?

Click to expand...

Given the relatively low energy conditions applying in most parts of most caves, it doesn't require much more than a small minority of clumsy or venal cavers to do significant and long-lasting damage. In strict conservation terms, the best place to take novices would be the high energy environments of flood prone large streamways, where any impact that their presence has is swamped by the energy input from the water.

There may be other considerations, however, that make this unwelcome to many as a policy.

Click to expand...

Graham I seriously am not trying to bait you on this subject.

Your stance I presume is one of limited control to caves, yes? And yes I can see that may be unpalatable to many. But if you had to tone that position down somewhat, what might be the next best solutions? There must be many answers to that.

Graham, I agree that novices are less likely to be careful. However, do you think think that there is much of a difference? In my experience, which will be far less than yours, I'd say that beginners are no more than double as likely to break something as the most experienced caver as they are often cautious of their abilities and moving more slowly.

By implication, if caves become CRoW designated, any damage caused on CRoW land is a criminal offence, policed by LAF and NE on behalf of DEFRA.
This could serve to re-inforce the argument that conservation education is a vital aspect of caver training, I am of the opinion that the majority of damage is done by the ignorant, not malicious.

stu said:

But by dint of that the only logical conclusion is all caving to stop. Which would be a pity.

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No it doesn't. It does require something other than a free for all, though. How do you avoid a free for all and the inevitable damage that would accompany it, on CRoW land if you get your way? This is why Chris and I are asking that these matters are properly thought through before pushing your wants forward.

stu said:

Now we could probably agree that caving isn't stopping any time soon, yes? And we could probably agree that there are some caves which are entered when they shouldn't be, yes? In light of that, how to "train" cavers to be more conservation minded? Even for the systems that are technically open.

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Such training takes time. It can be done in a club context where the ethos is absorbed along with the bacon and the beer, but joining clubs seems also to be anathema to some of the protagonists in this debate.

blackholesun said:

Graham, I agree that novices are less likely to be careful. However, do you think think that there is much of a difference? In my experience, which will be far less than yours, I'd say that beginners are no more than double as likely to break something as the most experienced caver as they are often cautious of their abilities and moving more slowly.

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In my experience, the best way of preventing novices from breaking things is to keep them away from that which is breakable until they have begun to learn how to move safely underground.

bograt said:

By implication, if caves become CRoW designated, any damage caused on CRoW land is a criminal offence, policed by LAF and NE on behalf of DEFRA.
This could serve to re-inforce the argument that conservation education is a vital aspect of caver training, I am of the opinion that the majority of damage is done by the ignorant, not malicious.

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Fair point. Do walkers carving a path over a moorland or climbers placing gear in cracks (and the inevitable wearing of said placements) suggest anything different other than the consequences of passage over that medium?

Check this out BMC

stu said:

Your stance I presume is one of limited control to caves, yes? And yes I can see that may be unpalatable to many. But if you had to tone that position down somewhat, what might be the next best solutions? There must be many answers to that.

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Probably the best conserved cave that I know is in the foothills of the Pyrenees. It was first explored in 1912 and contains some seriously rare and delicate features. It is kept this way by the landowner, who is the third generation of the same family to own it. (Actually technically it is now owned by a private family trust). Now, the most significant point is that during those 100 years that it has been open, less than 1,000 people have been down it. This feeling of terrific privilege is one of the things that ensures that you move very carefully down there.

Its that word "privilege" that sticks in my gut. How does one go about becoming one of the privileged few Graham? I'll hazard a guess that most of us need not bother applying.

A few posts ago someone used the term "limited access". We, humans I mean, have only got limited access. For the vast majority of most caves lives we weren't on the scene; and I'll happily bet next years wages that we will be off the scene long before most of our present cave are. And then new caves will form, and new limestone; and we won't be here to f*** it up at all.

So make the most of it while you're here boys and girls.

graham said:

stu said:

But by dint of that the only logical conclusion is all caving to stop. Which would be a pity.

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No it doesn't. It does require something other than a free for all, though. How do you avoid a free for all and the inevitable damage that would accompany it, on CRoW land if you get your way? This is why Chris and I are asking that these matters are properly thought through before pushing your wants forward.

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And in spite of what I think you think of me, I don't disagree; conservation isn't at the bottom of the list.

In the other thread I put forward such ideas as:


- permits granted to any caver (BCA member or not) in a 21st fashion. Self downloadable permits.

- permits held in a "bank" such as a cafe or shop that cavers can sign out (and back in) with a levy + deposit (for admin. costs).

- caves that are new finds and richly decorated have for a set period of time, a very robust leader/gate/permit system so that the "rush" of cavers can be moderated over time, so there isn't the mad scramble to get in there and see it (trash it).

stu said:

Now we could probably agree that caving isn't stopping any time soon, yes? And we could probably agree that there are some caves which are entered when they shouldn't be, yes? In light of that, how to "train" cavers to be more conservation minded? Even for the systems that are technically open.

Such training takes time. It can be done in a club context where the ethos is absorbed along with the bacon and the beer, but joining clubs seems also to be anathema to some of the protagonists in this debate.

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Maybe it does take time, who knows. I think even its present guise BCA has nothing like the push that the BMC has on conservation. Interesting you bring up clubs and none participation. Old saying: keep your friends close, your enemies closer! It doesn't matter if cavers aren't in clubs. It does matter if the message doesn't get to them because the only avenue is the club! BMC (again) saw this years ago and became less reliant on the clubs to pas on the knowledge.

Ship-badger said:

Its that word "privilege" that sticks in my gut. How does one go about becoming one of the privileged few Graham? I'll hazard a guess that most of us need not bother applying.

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In the case in point, it took me fifteen or more years of study and work to justify being allowed into that place, so, no, you need not bother applying unless you are prepared to put the effort in. If you are not, well, the cave doesn't care.

Yes I have seen places that you never will. That's essentially 'cos I didn't consider it my 'right' to do so.

I wonder if there is an odd misperception that cave damage is linearly related to the percentage of careless/malicious visitors that visit the cave. Wrong. There are ten delicate features in a cave. 100 cavers visit it. ten cavers each damage a delicate feature. Result - the cave is not 10 percent damaged, it is 100 percent screwed. Of course, it only may only take one caver in reality, not ten.

The best education to the caving world is not going to solve a great deal if 1 percent of those cavers aren't interested or think they know better.....

Cap'n Chris said:

Er, I'd hazard a guess that conservation would go out of the window if CRoW access applied to caving. In fact I believe/think/know that it would be a certainty. For sure. Deffo.

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I don?t agree. I think that some people are frightened  to death of what might happen to ?conservationism? if it transpired that cavers had access.  I do not see a flood of cavers enveloping the UK demanding entrance to every (CRoW) hole on the land, I do not see hordes of cavers running roughshod through the passages.

What I would like (expect?) to see, were CRoW to become a reality for cavers is a sensible discussion how we (as cavers) apply it. I still agree landowners wishes are very important (paramount if the land is non-CRoW) and I still agree we don?t want to aggravate or agitate such landowners. Additionally, I would expect various ?bodies? to put forwards the names of various caves that have conservation issues ? I would like (expect?) that to be discussed to, to find a mutually satisfactory way forward.

It also does not necessarily mean the end of a permit system as legitimate concerns have been raised about multiple groups all turning up at the same hole at the same time.

In short, I think that CRoW becoming a reality for cavers would cause us to sit down and take a look at the whole issue through eveyones eyes.

bograt said:

.... I am of the opinion that the majority of damage is done by the ignorant, not malicious.

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I completely agree.

I would go a little further too ... Whilst leading a group of novices and whilst explaining not to touch/damage various ?features?, I have (sorry to say) more than once, accidently been negligent (placed half a wellie on a gour formation on the floor, knocked a straw stal by accident whilst pointing at one explaining they are fragile and not to touch). How many of us can honestly say we have never had a little accident ?

graham said:

..... This is why Chris and I are asking that these matters are properly thought through before pushing your wants forward.

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I completely understand this and subscribe to it. However, I do see it as a different issue to whether cavers have the right to access a cave on CRoW land. Nevertheless, if cavers CAN access CRoW caves I will want to discuss exactly the issues you are raising now (not ignore them as I think is feared).

Ian

A good post Jackalpup.