Ship-badger
Member
Can anyone fill us in on what happened in Rhino Rift on Friday? I've heard rumours of a near disaster with bang fumes.
Rhino Rift incident
- Thread starter Ship-badger
- Start date
graham
New member
Then you've been talking to all the wrong people. There was no disaster or near disaster.
An attempt has been made to stabilise the very loose head of the third pitch. There was certainly a significant movement of rock but no close inspection has yet taken place as, on Saturday, it was found that the fumes remained ponded at that level.
All the keyholding clubs were informed beforehand that the work was going to take place and they have also been informed of the inspection delay. When a full inspection has been possible, they will also be informed of the results. I believe that one other party did venture over that way on Saturday, I can only presume that someone had collected the key before notice was given to that club's membership.
An attempt has been made to stabilise the very loose head of the third pitch. There was certainly a significant movement of rock but no close inspection has yet taken place as, on Saturday, it was found that the fumes remained ponded at that level.
All the keyholding clubs were informed beforehand that the work was going to take place and they have also been informed of the inspection delay. When a full inspection has been possible, they will also be informed of the results. I believe that one other party did venture over that way on Saturday, I can only presume that someone had collected the key before notice was given to that club's membership.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
These are the facts as known to me:
On the 17th July Graham Mullan emailed the key-holding member clubs of CCC with the following message:
Apologies for the short notice, it cannot be helped. Tomorrow, Friday 18th July, an attempt will be made to drop the loose rock in Rhino Rift and thus stabilise the third pitch head, once more. Please, therefore DO NOT issue any keys for this cave to anybody UNTIL the work has both been carried out and a subsequent inspection has taken place to assess whether it has worked.
I shall keep you all informed of progress.
The work as described was carried out on Friday 18th July. No warning notice was placed in the cave or at the entrance. The padlock was not changed.
On Saturday 19th July two cavers (unaware of these events) used a Wessex key to access the cave. They abseiled down into fumes and experienced considerable difficulty re-ascending the ropes. Approximately two hours later they came to our shop in Cheddar and spoke with my wife. They were both still experiencing breathing difficulties at that time.
On Sunday 20th July the Wessex Cave Club posted Graham's email of the 17th on their group email, with an apology for a delay in dissemination.
On the 17th July Graham Mullan emailed the key-holding member clubs of CCC with the following message:
Apologies for the short notice, it cannot be helped. Tomorrow, Friday 18th July, an attempt will be made to drop the loose rock in Rhino Rift and thus stabilise the third pitch head, once more. Please, therefore DO NOT issue any keys for this cave to anybody UNTIL the work has both been carried out and a subsequent inspection has taken place to assess whether it has worked.
I shall keep you all informed of progress.
The work as described was carried out on Friday 18th July. No warning notice was placed in the cave or at the entrance. The padlock was not changed.
On Saturday 19th July two cavers (unaware of these events) used a Wessex key to access the cave. They abseiled down into fumes and experienced considerable difficulty re-ascending the ropes. Approximately two hours later they came to our shop in Cheddar and spoke with my wife. They were both still experiencing breathing difficulties at that time.
On Sunday 20th July the Wessex Cave Club posted Graham's email of the 17th on their group email, with an apology for a delay in dissemination.
Alex
Well-known member
How is a warning by e-mail for a day time about something as critical as that suppose to be acceptable? Most clubs I know only check their e-mail weekly, so I don't blame the Wessex at all! Glad I am in North where we get proper warnings up here, I think we all got a months notice before work started on Lanc hole to stabilise that for example. Glad also those unlucky cavers were not seriously hurt.
Finally even if the short notice could not be helped how bloody hard is to laminate a sign (sure I said this before somewhere).
Disgraceful, I say.
Finally even if the short notice could not be helped how bloody hard is to laminate a sign (sure I said this before somewhere).
Disgraceful, I say.
badger
Active member
obviously with such short notice there was always the possibility something could go wrong, maybe on hindsight and in future where such short notice is given due to circumstance's the people in control of this exercise will leave a laminated notice, tie some tape across the entrance also with a notice and a notice at the junction to the head of the pitch possible attached to a small road cone, that should make sure it is obvious to any one entering the cave
Speleokitty
New member
It might be useful if this post turned into a bad air warning and unnecessary detail is accidentally lost.
Hopefully those responsible for the current situation will take measures to prevent accidental access until the problem has been resolved.
Hopefully those responsible for the current situation will take measures to prevent accidental access until the problem has been resolved.
martinm
New member
Speleokitty said:
Yep, agree totally. And you can't rely on email with this short notice. And you can't rely on text messages either, cos they are NOT reliable, either time-wise or delivery-wise. (I can provide links to the RFCs, SMS is NOT a guaranteed message service.)
As suggested above, hazard tape outside the entrance and a laminated sign (which I could produce in minutes) would have warned the unfortunate cavers of the works going on, hazards, etc. It's standard H&S practice and I use them all the time in my area of the Peak. It is much appreciated by members of the public who I encounter all the time.
Alleviates complaints, problems and possible legal action. We normally get friendly waves and smiles these days, not irate people. The H&S recommendations might seem overkill, but we are finding them very useful.
I will post a link to one of our signs if anyone feels it would be useful.
Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.
Ship-badger
Member
So Graham, according to you, cavers abseiling into bang fumes is not a near disaster. If that is your view, then it merely confirms what I have always suspected. I aplogise that I got the day wrong in my initial post.
crickleymal
New member
graham said:
Huh! Two people abseil into fumes and have breathing difficulties isn't a near disaster?
Surely someone should have done what others have suggested and put a notice on the entrance to the cave NOT rely on emails which are a fairly unreliable means of communication (not everyone reads their emails regularly or even has a computer).
Bottlebank
New member
Given that any harm caused was obviously unintended, the nature of this discussion, that I'm sure with hindsight whoever did the job wishes they'd put up a sign, is it not worth dropping this discussion before someone like almost everyone's least favourite newspaper picks up on it and really blows it out of all proportion? Hopefully the two cavers affected are OK and all has ended well.
David Rose
Active member
It won't be the Mail on Sunday.
David Rose
Active member
No, it's the fact I write for the Mail on Sunday.
David- if that was a reply to my post, I wasnt questioning what you said, I was addressing the "manslaughter" post. I do know who you work for.
Moving on:
[quote author=cscc ]
WARNING: Part of the 3rd pitch head has collapsed (Nov. 2011) and the remainder is dangerously unstable. Do not descend below the 3rd pitch.
[/quote]
I have no idea of the recent circumstances, but reading the quotes above suggests there may be more to this event than we have been told. For eg, did the cavers attempt to descend the 3rd pitch?
Moving on:
graham said:
[quote author=cscc ]
WARNING: Part of the 3rd pitch head has collapsed (Nov. 2011) and the remainder is dangerously unstable. Do not descend below the 3rd pitch.
[/quote]
I have no idea of the recent circumstances, but reading the quotes above suggests there may be more to this event than we have been told. For eg, did the cavers attempt to descend the 3rd pitch?
Ship-badger
Member
What's up Graham, you are strangely silent for once. Do you, or do you not agree that two cavers abseiling into bang fumes is a near disaster?
martinm
New member
pete h said:
Unfortunately, due to the short notice, keys had already been issued. Standard H&S practice would have prevented this incident. Not having a go at anybody, just saying. Hazard tape and a notice would have prevented this near miss. A lesson learned hopefully. Stuff I was taught on my Level 2 Environmental Conservation Diploma course last year. (Which involved a lot of H&S stuff, which though then was a bit boring, I am grateful for now.) It's easy to overlook these things, until they are brought to your attention for some reason.
