You've all no doubt seen them on Ebay. Karabiners, Pulleys, Ascenders, Descenders etc from China at knock down prices.

The photos generally make it look okay, but would you buy it and would you trust your life to it? If not, why not?

Have you bought some? Have you tested some? Are you h'mmming add a'hhhhhring over some?

Undoubtedly it comes with all the correct markings standard wise and possibly a certificate of conformity/compliance.

But then again, so do the ?10 Rolex watches that are for sale on the average Thai beach.

Madness said:

You've all no doubt seen them on Ebay. Karabiners, Pulleys, Ascenders, Descenders etc from China at knock down prices.

The photos generally make it look okay, but would you buy it and would you trust your life to it? If not, why not?

Have you bought some? Have you tested some? Are you h'mmming add a'hhhhhring over some?

Undoubtedly it comes with all the correct markings standard wise and possibly a certificate of conformity/compliance.

But then again, so do the ?10 Rolex watches that are for sale on the average Thai beach.

Click to expand...

You get what you pay for in this life. 

Having watched the BBC programme "Fake Britain" this evening and seen knock-off bike lids that claimed to meet standards tested and found _very_ wanting, no way - I'll stick to known brands bought from known retailers for my safety-critical kit.

It would be interesting to test some of these to destruction. I have an open mind regarding the quality of Chinese made stuff (not specifically climbing hardware). It can vary from utter crap to extremely good.

Until it's been established that this stuff is safe then I'm going to stick to known brands. However, I'm not sure everyone would have the same view.

A friend of mine was at a trade show in China some years ago when he noticed a company advertising manufacturing copies of Petzl products. The company was reported and I think shut down. Its one thing copying tackle bags but when they start copying safety products and applying CE markings, this is something very different.

A number of the copy products were tested by Petzl and could have failed in normal use. It is very difficult to tell the difference between an original and a copy, even to the trained eye. The Petzl Spatha knives that they copied were very good. What gave them away as copies was PETZEL written on the box.

I had someone asking me what I thought about some brand new Petzl William carabiners, with all the paperwork that his boss had bought a few weeks before on eBay. I compared it with a genuine William and they were pretty poor copies.

When your fake Rolex conks out you miss your bus, when your piece of cheep Chinese safety critical equipment fails you probably die.

Mark

Mark Wright said:

A friend of mine was at a trade show in China some years ago when he noticed a company advertising manufacturing copies of Petzl products. The company was reported and I think shut down. Its one thing copying tackle bags but when they start copying safety products and applying CE markings, this is something very different.

A number of the copy products were tested by Petzl and could have failed in normal use. It is very difficult to tell the difference between an original and a copy, even to the trained eye. The Petzl Spatha knives that they copied were very good. What gave them away as copies was PETZEL written on the box.

I had someone asking me what I thought about some brand new Petzl William carabiners, with all the paperwork that his boss had bought a few weeks before on eBay. I compared it with a genuine William and they were pretty poor copies.

When your fake Rolex conks out you miss your bus, when your piece of cheep Chinese safety critical equipment fails you probably die.

Mark

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This is on a par with the perfect looking 'Duracell alkaline' batteries, which you could buy in British supermarkets and on market stalls relatively recently, that - just like conventional zinc-carbon dry cells - end up leaking all over the battery compartments in which they are installed. Real Duracells don't tend to leak so readily or extensively in this fashion.

Not exactly life threatening, depending on the equipment being powered, but certainly annoying.

So, how is this fake stuff being checked and certified when  imported?

The Chinese Petzl copies never got out of China luckily.

I don't think the questionable gear comes through normal customs channels. 

Mark

It looks like faked Petzl gear isn't that rare: see http://www.petzl.com/security/sport/recalls/information-copies-contrefacons?language=en

So lets take the fake Petzl stuff out of the equation.

There are lots of items being marketed under the brand 'GM' for instance. Playing devils advocate - Who can categorically say that these items are not up to the job or safe to use?

I'm not going to start buying the stuff, but I see no reason why it couldn't be perfectly servicable.

If I had the equipment I'd buy a couple of bits to test to destruction just out of interest.

It's an interesting topic.

The lamps we supply are Chinese made.  They are very high quality, but rather annoyingly for us, there are also many copies with the same model numbers, etc, that are of lesser quality.

We've been trying to gain ATEX certification... it's been an interesting and long-winded experience.  People like Bureau Veritas (French certification body) and TUV (German certification body) have offices in China, so it is perfectly possible to get truly certified items direct out of China.  The challenge we've been having has not been one of whether the product is up to the job, but rather, whether we can paperwork of sufficient standard to go with it!

The REAL Chinese situation ( for those who believe!)  :-\
The Chinese make branded goods for western companies with their full quality control.
Then they"run on" production and sell themselves. (Quality ok.)
Any goods with quality problems are sold to other Chinese merchants. (Quality poor)

Then there are outright fakes!

Wayland Smith said:

The REAL Chinese situation ( for those who believe!)  :-\
The Chinese make branded goods for western companies with their full quality control.
Then they"run on" production and sell themselves. (Quality ok.)
Any goods with quality problems are sold to other Chinese merchants. (Quality poor)

Then there are outright fakes!

Click to expand...

The branded 'Duracell' batteries that I purchased from a major supermarket chain leaked inside my telephone after annual replacement of proper Duracell batteries for 13-14 years without a problem. And the paper log that I had kept of the battery change dates inside the battery compartment, previously without a problem, was trashed in the process.

Either the batteries weren't alkaline dry cells at all or the enhanced sealing that Duracell use to help prevent major leakage from their alkaline batteries wasn't employed in the manufacturing process.

I wonder who at the supermarkets is aware of what they are supplying?
Some bean counter probably takes the lowest quote and is not interested in quality. 

When it all goes wrong the directors are horrified and deny all knowledge (allegedly.)

I was at the Canton Fair in Guangzhou a few years ago. I was not looking for climbing gear but when I did cross some, I had a look. Some of it was very good. NOW, listen up, because this is very interesting, I am not lying here. I came across a stall which was selling Petzl gear. When I say Petzl gear, it was the same. You will note how people say "assembled in france". You'll also note that the copyright issues are due to the trademark, not the design. I looked at 3 items, there were others. A petzl shunt, hand ascenders and stop. These were IDENTICAL, apart from there was no logo stamp. I am utterly convinced they are from the same tooling. The business I was a part of used to deal with various components and at one time, we had some injection moulding tooling made. When I look at a piece of injection moulded plastic, I notice it quite carefully, you see how it has been formed. The catches on the ascenders and stop were IDENTICAL. They were out of tooling which could have been the same.

Now, are the components of Petzl gubbins manufactured in China and shipped to france for assembly? I think they might be. I think the firm were naughty and left the Petzl bit out of the tooling. It would probably need to be screwed in as a part of it's manufacture. A blank could be easily made.

Ditch your stereotypes about china. Whilst there is some crap, much of the stuff they produce is VERY good. In certain areas, they lead the way.

I expect much more of your "stuff" is made there than you'd think.

zippy said:

It's an interesting topic.

The lamps we supply are Chinese made.  They are very high quality, but rather annoyingly for us, there are also many copies with the same model numbers, etc, that are of lesser quality.

We've been trying to gain ATEX certification... it's been an interesting and long-winded experience.  People like Bureau Veritas (French certification body) and TUV (German certification body) have offices in China, so it is perfectly possible to get truly certified items direct out of China.  The challenge we've been having has not been one of whether the product is up to the job, but rather, whether we can paperwork of sufficient standard to go with it!

Click to expand...

Could somebody like Intertek help?  They test and certify all sorts of things.  I worked for their Shenzhen office in South China a few years ago. 

Wayland Smith said:

I wonder who at the supermarkets is aware of what they are supplying?
Some bean counter probably takes the lowest quote and is not interested in quality. 

When it all goes wrong the directors are horrified and deny all knowledge (allegedly.)

Click to expand...

If you have ever supplied into a high street retail chain, you will know that not to be true. I would say that they are the most stringent places to supply product into. Unless they have been outright conned of course.

Chris.

Roger W said:

Could somebody like Intertek help?  They test and certify all sorts of things.  I worked for their Shenzhen office in South China a few years ago.

Click to expand...

I believe (hope!) it is all in hand - BV France have basically passed the product, they're just after a few bits of paperwork before they'll issue certificates - but thank you anyway

The main point I was trying to make, which has been echoed elsewhere on this thread, is that actually, a lot of stuff coming out of China is very good indeed.

Madness said:

Undoubtedly it comes with all the correct markings standard wise and possibly a certificate of conformity/compliance.

Click to expand...

I have heard stories of Chinese manufacturers asking what stamps (CE etc) buyers would like placed on their products...

If a Chinese manufacturer sticks 'CE' on their stuff (when they either don't care or don't know if it would pass CE certification) then what law are they breaking? I'm not familiar with Chinese law but EU/UK law certainly doesn't apply to them... The requirement for ensuring certification lies with the importer who brings goods into the EU. Unless you are in a position to verify that the goods in question do indeed comply with CE certification then you shouldn't even think about bringing safety-critical gear into the EU.

Consequently I would never buy safety gear from China directly; I simply cannot verify that it meets CE (or other relevant) safety standards. I would be reticent to buy from an EU source if I felt they were importing gear without the proper level of rigour (e.g. Ebay suppliers who again either don't check or more likely can't check that the stuff they are selling is safe). I only feel confident buying from retailers large enough to ensure the stuff they get from China meets relevant safety standards e.g. Black Diamond (climbing gear, I don't know a good caving equivalent). As has been pointed out elsewhere even the large manufacturers/retailers get caught out occasionally e.g. Wild Country doing a large recall of climbing nuts, dating back to just after they moved production from DMM, Wales to China...