had a discussion on a recent trip which arose when I brandished some new maillons

"How much did you pay for those?" was the question raised by an "accomplice"

I explained I'd bought them from Hitch N Hike, for ? not very much, to which he responded he just bought some "bargain" ones from the local hardware shop....(which were unmarked)

I questioned this and suggested that I didn't want to have anything to do with his equipment, and wouldn't be descending if any of his bargain kit was used for the rigging

I did expect the rest of the group to concurr with my thinking but concensus was not unanimous unanimous with comments like:

?I use non PPE ones if I know I?m going to have to leave them behind?

?The rock is not CE marked?

?There?s always a backup!?


I personally think any equipment I will likely be hanging from will be appropriately marked with it's rated load etc to verify it has been manufactured under a quality controlled enviroment to a standard, and is not some old tat to be used for fastening a bit of old chain across the pub car park...

Maybe I'm being a little over cautious here - you tell me?

Had a quick think and in my opinion (and it really is only opinion as I know nothing on the topic and could change my opinion) then it isn't the marking that initially bothered me but not knowing what the maillons are designed for, i.e. are they decorative or properly designed to take loads and falls. Personally I think I'd buy non marked ones from a caving/climbing shop but not from a hardware store. But that doesn't answer your actual question about using the maillons should someone turn up with them...

This problem is actually more complex than many people will at first realise, since it is legitimate to CE mark Maillon Rapide type links under two different directives. Even Peguet, the French manufacturers of the Maillon Rapide brand, sell two different types: one is CE marked under the PPE Directive and is designed for use as part of a PPE system for climbing, caving or rope access. The others are CE marked as lifting accessories under the Machinery Directive and are designed for industrial lifting and support applications.

Links CE marked under the Machinery Directive do not need to be checked by an independent test house before they are sold - the manufacturer can legally self-certify them without the involvement of a third party. Links sold for PPE applications must be certified by an independent test authority (a "Notified Body") and the manufacturer's quality system must also be assessed.

The way to tell the difference between them is that for independently certified links, the CE mark is accompanied by a four figure reference number which indicates the Notified Body who were involved in the quality system assessment at the manufacturer. So, unless the links have a four figure reference number next to the CE mark then they are not certified as PPE.

Peguet claim that they make all their links to the same standards, which is probably true in as far as it goes, but it doesn't explain exactly how they certify large links for industrial applications for which the PPE standards simply don't apply. Nevertheless, I think they can probably be trusted to know what they are doing and I'd have no hesitation in using their products for caving applications whether they were CE marked as PPE or not. I'd be less comfortable with using non-PPE certified products from other sources, particularly bearing in mind some recent evidence I have seen about the quality of steel currently being used for engineering applications in some eastern countries. I'd avoid using non-CE marked products for anything more critical than hanging a washing line.

Nick.

da man has spoken

Don't forget that PPE is an "industrial" standard and has no relevance outside of industrial (ie. at work) use. A lot of caving gear that we use on a regular basis is not "PPE" (there is no CE mark on resin anchors for instance but people are happy to use them) although there has been a long tradition of cavers "borrowing" ideas and equipment from industry.

As nick pointed out a CE mark does not prove that it is PPE it only shows that something was manufactured to "a standard". Unless you know what the standard is then the CE mark has no real relevance.

Les W said:

Don't forget that PPE is an "industrial" standard and has no relevance outside of industrial (ie. at work) use. A lot of caving gear that we use on a regular basis is not "PPE" (there is no CE mark on resin anchors for instance but people are happy to use them) although there has been a long tradition of cavers "borrowing" ideas and equipment from industry.

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Not true, Les. PPE can used by people who are not at work just as much as those who are at work. I am involved in the committee which drafts standards for mountaineering equipment and we don't think about any distinction between professional and non-professional users when we are drafting the standards. The CE marking requirement is about free trade, not about who uses the equipment. There are extra rules which pertain to people at work, but these are not relevant to the CE marking.

Anchors are not CE marked because they are not PPE, as defined in the PPE Directive, and nor are they 'lifting accessories' within the scope of the Machinery Directive. (There's a case that ropes used by cavers and industrial roped access technicians are not PPE as well, but that's another issue!)

Les W said:

As nick pointed out a CE mark does not prove that it is PPE it only shows that something was manufactured to "a standard". Unless you know what the standard is then the CE mark has no real relevance.

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The CE mark doesn't even mean that, really. But I'm off out digging now so you'll have to do a Google on "CE marking" and refer to the excellent resource on the subject which you'll find somewhere on page 1 of the results if you want more info!

Nick.

PPE is tested and marked. It is identifiable and trustable as long as it is maintained. Metalwork (or even ropes) that are unmarked cannot be traced. You can never be sure where they came from or if they where made by a reputable company or a man in a shed in Uzbekistan.
The proper ones cost more, of course. Its piece of mind and its worth every penny.

How much is your life worth, and the life of your mates? Is it really worth the saving?

All my maillons  predate marking by about a decade. I've not broken one yet....

As a general point marking has been a mixed blessing IMHO, with some good products disappearing (eg. CS helmets with the edelrid shell and CS webbbing) and other products getting marked and into the market that I personally think are very bad/unsafe  (e.g. the Camp (?) helmets with solid polystyrene foam instead of a proper cradle) 

Its kept the market clear of Russian krabs and Chinese ropes that are used very successfully in other parts of the world and created a high price closed shop on some equipment.

A stamp doesnt make a product safe. A lack of stamp doesnt make a product dangerous. You have to use common sense and, god forbid in this H&S obsessed age, "personal judgement".....

Are P hangers stamped.... ???? 

AndyF said:

Are P hangers stamped.... ???? 

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...(there is no CE mark on resin anchors for instance but people are happy to use them)...

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P hangers may not be stamped but there are, relatively speaking, only a few of them, if they are installed under the BCA scheme then every caver is (should be) familiar with their origin and with the standard procedures under which they have been installed.

If you come across un-stamped maillons in a store somewhere, how do you use "personal judgment" to assess them? or have some cavers got access to some seriously high tech non-destructive steel analysis kit?

graham said:

If you come across un-stamped maillons in a store somewhere, how do you use "personal judgment" to assess them? or have some cavers got access to some seriously high tech non-destructive steel analysis kit?

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You could drop test a few

You could, yes. How many would you need to test before being confident that the manufacturing standards were sufficiently consistent to trust the results as being applicable to the remaining untested ones?

Nick might know the answer to that. I don't.

We were/are happy to cave on 8mm spits (well some of us anyway) so the maillions would only need to be as strong as that. As part of a rigging system you should not be relying on a single anchor anyway so there should always be multiple maillions/anchors to share any loads.

graham said:

You could, yes. How many would you need to test before being confident that the manufacturing standards were sufficiently consistent to trust the results as being applicable to the remaining untested ones?

Nick might know the answer to that. I don't.

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Drop testing is not a very reliable way of getting an ultimate strength figure - there are too may variables in a dynamic system for the results to be statistically useful unless you have a large number of samples.

Quality control of composition for metal components is a problem unless the manufacturer has very good and reliable QC procedures. We now have an office in China and I'm pretty familiar with this problem one way and another. Some manufacturers have very good QC and I'd be prepared to rely on them for anything, others are less reliable, and although generally UK and nearby EU suppliers are pretty good it's by no means a universal truth that UK suppliers are good, nor is it universally true that non-EU suppliers are bad. I know of some very good and reliable Chinese suppliers, for instance, and it's highly likely that the next batch of BCA 'P' hangars will be made in China.

To answer the question you posed, I would not rely on drop test data alone to determine the quality and reliability of this sort of component - I'd want to know how good the manufacturer's understanding of the materials and manufacturing issues were, and also how good their QC procedures were.

Nick.

Would unscrupulous manufacturers put a stamp on it without actually getting the certification...

andymorgan said:

Would unscrupulous manufacturers put a stamp on it without actually getting the certification...

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It would be impossible for an end user to know whether or not they had done this. This is why purchasing from reputable outlets is a sensible approach.

In my business, the standing joke is that 'CE' stands for caveat emptor, or possibly 'China Export'. It certainly isn't any sport of quality mark.

Nick.

graham said:

If you come across un-stamped maillons in a store somewhere, how do you use "personal judgment" to assess them? or have some cavers got access to some seriously high tech non-destructive steel analysis kit?

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No, but if its made by Pugeot then Id choose to trust it, knowing anyway it will never be a single point of hang, always backed up..

As for "reputation" of a company, well some here may rememkber the recall of all Wild Country "Friends" that happened a few years ago and  Ithink other krabs have been subject to recall.

A stamp is just that, in itself it means nothing other than create a sense of security for the purchaser. You have no way to know if your particular item is safe/faulty/dodgey batch etc.

Buying item from a reputable shop gives nothing other than more artificialsense of security.


Here is a photo of a brand new rifle, proof marked that blew up after a dozen shots....had all the tickets, all the stamps but that meant nothing really. It was faulty in manufacture....

Les W said:

As part of a rigging system you should not be relying on a single anchor anyway

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Unless you're visiting Swildon's Hole, beyond the ladder pitch, in which case you may copy what many others do and clip your ladder straight to a single bolt.

AndyF said:

As for "reputation" of a company, well some here may rememkber the recall of all Wild Country "Friends" that happened a few years ago and  Ithink other krabs have been subject to recall.

A stamp is just that, in itself it means nothing other than create a sense of security for the purchaser. You have no way to know if your particular item is safe/faulty/dodgey batch etc.

Buying item from a reputable shop gives nothing other than more artificialsense of security.


Here is a photo of a brand new rifle, proof marked that blew up after a dozen shots....had all the tickets, all the stamps but that meant nothing really. It was faulty in manufacture....

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That's a council of despair, really, isn't it!

I'd argue that neither Wild Country nor the rifle manufacturer had correctly working and/or appropriate QC procedures in the cases you cite and I am sure there are reputable caving and climbing shops up and down the land who would take issue with your dismissal of their worth.

Purchasing from a reputable source is not a waste of time. I agree that ultimately life is a matter of chance, but purchasing certified items from reputable sources reduces the chances of ending up with faulty items even if it does not eliminate the possibility completely.

Nick.

It's not just a council of despair, rather it's a classic example of argument by anecdote. So one gun that had been marked is shown to have had a manufacturing fault; so what? What proportion of guns marked like that fail? What proportion of guns produced, instead, by a bloke in a blacksmith's shed with no external quality control fail?

Nobody is perfect, even Rolls Royce have failures, but statistically speaking their products are far less likely to fail than those of, say, Trabant.