Author Topic: Kingsdale Rescue  (Read 16983 times)

Offline JJ

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 169
  • NCC
    • http://www.dalesbridge.co.uk
Kingsdale Rescue
« on: September 10, 2007, 01:19:17 pm »
CRO was called out yesterday (9th Sept) to an indivdual who thought he was free diving the first 2m long Rowten Sump from the KMC side. Infact he dived in a furry suit, without mask, hood or weights the 30m long 1st Mud River Series sump. He was very relieved to both surface and eventually be found by CRO using the bypass crawl.
 
The message we would like to make to anyone free diving any sumps is to check you are at the right sump. As a general rule of thumb free divable sumps normaly have thick ropes through them which should be suitably belayed. Other sumps such as this one tend to have thin diving lines which may not be suitable for pulling oneself through hand over hand, may also be tighter than anticipated or silted up.

As with many aspects of our sport, local & up-to-date advice is most valuable.
 
CRO would like to thank the CDG members who were on route yesterday as well as the UWFRA members who just happened to be in the cave.
 
Jon Beavan
Duty Controller
Cave Rescue Organistaion

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6259
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2007, 01:48:25 pm »

Jesus - lucky lad.

Was he on a solo trip (seems like it from the post).

Quote
As a general rule of thumb free divable sumps normaly have thick ropes through them which should be suitably belayed

Its quite a dangerous rule of thumb really. There are a few sumps around that have 11mm static on them - that are not free dives. (An I right in thinking sump 4 in swildons)

We had a similar experience in swildons - ended up at the down stream end of sump 3 instead of sump 1. The sump was slightly longer than expected!!!

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10943
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2007, 02:02:36 pm »

Jesus - lucky lad.

Was he on a solo trip (seems like it from the post).

Quote
As a general rule of thumb free divable sumps normaly have thick ropes through them which should be suitably belayed

Its quite a dangerous rule of thumb really. There are a few sumps around that have 11mm static on them - that are not free dives. (An I right in thinking sump 4 in swildons)

We had a similar experience in swildons - ended up at the down stream end of sump 3 instead of sump 1. The sump was slightly longer than expected!!!


How the hell did you manage that Sam?
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline Bob Smith

  • new to all things i haven't seen before
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 761
  • BEC
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2007, 02:22:14 pm »

Jesus - lucky lad.

Was he on a solo trip (seems like it from the post).

Quote
As a general rule of thumb free divable sumps normaly have thick ropes through them which should be suitably belayed

Its quite a dangerous rule of thumb really. There are a few sumps around that have 11mm static on them - that are not free dives. (An I right in thinking sump 4 in swildons)

We had a similar experience in swildons - ended up at the down stream end of sump 3 instead of sump 1. The sump was slightly longer than expected!!!

arse/elbow issue here?


How the hell did you manage that Sam?

Offline Cookie

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1079
  • WCC, Dark Places, ChCC, BEC, CSS
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2007, 02:23:16 pm »
Its quite a dangerous rule of thumb really. There are a few sumps around that have 11mm static on them - that are not free dives. (An I right in thinking sump 4 in swildons)

But Sump 4 is regarded as free diveable.

Quote from: Mendip Underground 1999 P194
All three sumps [2, 3 & 4] are free diveable, but are at the extremes of the technique and advice on this is given before the actual descriptions.

As you say though, lucky lad!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 02:38:56 pm by Cookie »
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

AMW

  • Guest
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 02:28:23 pm »
Quote
There are a few sumps around that have 11mm static

Most sumps will be lined with 4mm or 6mm line unless it is set up as a pull line that can be 10mm plus, if divers are not using fins to pass the sump. The only time you should pull on a line  ::)

Andrew.

Offline AndyF

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2892
    • http://www.keyhole.org.uk
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2007, 03:42:49 pm »
Blinkin flip lucky, lucky begger....

Didnt this happen once before with some scouts?....or am I getting confused with the Dido's cave incident.
"Life's a pitch, then you fall down one..."

Offline Simon Beck

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
    • Legends Session
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2007, 04:00:40 pm »
I heard there were 3 guys in the group, a friend of mine actually pointed out where valley entrance was to them, he seemed to think they were beginners also, very very lucky chap if you ask me!.

Offline smollett

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2007, 04:55:14 pm »
Is that the longest UK freedive then? I heard a scout did over 25m once by accident but can't remember where now. I had an over eager fresher try to swim in that sump pool in fairly high water conditions once. Could easily have gone the same way!
sunshine bores the daylights out of me

Offline AndyF

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2892
    • http://www.keyhole.org.uk
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2007, 05:21:32 pm »
Didnt a scout free dive Bridge to Neath once......   after getting lost from his group and seeing the dive line...???
"Life's a pitch, then you fall down one..."

Offline Rob

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2314
  • The Eldon
    • Eldon PC
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2007, 06:02:54 pm »
Is that the longest UK freedive then? I heard a scout did over 25m once by accident but can't remember where now. I had an over eager fresher try to swim in that sump pool in fairly high water conditions once. Could easily have gone the same way!

I heard a cadet did a stooopid distance in the resurgence lower entrance of Carlswark, after being repeatebly told by his sergent that this was the way on and that it did go! He was found in an airbell a few hours later when they drained the sump.

As for the HMC rescue, wow! 30m is fantastic. If he was a begineer i hope it didn't throw him enough to stop, and that some clubs have got his details  :thumbsup:
The end is where we start....

Offline rsch

  • stalker
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2007, 06:14:20 pm »
I heard a cadet did a stooopid distance in the resurgence lower entrance of Carlswark, after being repeatebly told by his sergent that this was the way on and that it did go! He was found in an airbell a few hours later when they drained the sump.

That's covered here http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,1891.40.html

Langthwaite Pot

  • Guest
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2007, 06:14:46 pm »
Fookin 'ell!

I don't think that this is the first time somebody has mistaken these two sumps. I believe on the previous occassion the free diver emerged in a previously unknown airbell :o

Perhaps a sign post is required at the junction ;)

George.


Offline Stupot

  • Keep your distance -
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
  • BEC - Everything to Excess!!
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2007, 06:43:19 pm »
Swildon's S4 has rope and is free diveable, S9 also has rope through it and that you would not want to free dive (30m).

Although apparently it has been.

Stu.
"Keep on Digging - Jrat 2008."

My Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/26282244@N05/

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12287
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2007, 07:05:10 pm »
Perhaps a sign post is required at the junction

No point. Cavers can't read.

Offline Simon Beck

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
    • Legends Session
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2007, 07:13:35 pm »
Perhaps a sign post is required at the junction

No point. Cavers can't read.

From the looks of things some cavers can't think......

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10943
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007, 07:22:12 pm »
Swildon's S4 has rope and is free diveable, S9 also has rope through it and that you would not want to free dive (30m).

Although apparently it has been.

Stu.

We looked at the feasibility of a free-diving route through 9 back in the 70s, not that long after the sump 7 bypass was opened, but I'm not aware that anyone has actually done it.

Be fascinated to hear that they had. Properly I mean, not just with a gag in their mouth but not taking a breath.
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline menacer

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 994
  • Craven Pothole Club
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 07:29:27 pm »
Swildon's S4 has rope and is free diveable, S9 also has rope through it and that you would not want to free dive (30m).

Although apparently it has been.

Stu.

That was Graham in the BEC ....he did it with bottle and reg but didnt take a breathe.....

There has been a similar incident in swildons in the last couple of years where a group doing the short round found themselves down blue pencil and looking at the wrong end of s3 not s1!!! and not realising it.....The first guy went thru, got to the airbell between s2 and s3 realized his mistake (well im sure he realised it after 2 feet) and didnt pull on the rope to signal his mates to follow....fortunately.....
He also stayed put.
His mates unsure of what to do set off to retrace their steps and were met by a wessex cdg team returning from s12.
They explained what had happened....
Realising the error they split into 2 teams, one to go and hopefully find said new found cave diver alive in airbell, the others escorted the rest of the group up blue pencil and out.
The freezing cold new diver was found in the airbell, given a quick crash course in diving with a reg and pony and escorted out through s2...
They all lived happy ever after

Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6259
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2007, 09:02:24 pm »
How the hell did you manage that Sam?

see post


There has been a similar incident in swildons in the last couple of years where a group doing the short round found themselves down blue pencil and looking at the wrong end of s3 not s1!!! and not realising it.....The first guy went thru, got to the airbell between s2 and s3 realized his mistake (well im sure he realised it after 2 feet) and didnt pull on the rope to signal his mates to follow....fortunately.....
He also stayed put.
His mates unsure of what to do set off to retrace their steps and were met by a wessex cdg team returning from s12.
They explained what had happened....
Realising the error they split into 2 teams, one to go and hopefully find said new found cave diver alive in airbell, the others escorted the rest of the group up blue pencil and out.
The freezing cold new diver was found in the airbell, given a quick crash course in diving with a reg and pony and escorted out through s2...
They all lived happy ever after

So quite easily really graham.

4 cavers from derbyshire, none been in swildons before, only read the description a couple of times. take the wrong tunr and go down blue pencil passage. Bosh upstream.

To set the record straight. We knew we where NOT at sump one (rope on sump one was hawser laid - this was static). Caver  A is sure that he's read that you can free dive up to at least sump 9 - and theres a big fat rope - so off he goes. After an unsettlingly long period of movement on the rope - it stopped, and there was no discernable 3 tugs.

Not quite sure what to do, I decided to give it a go (I think the mental process went something like - Ah well F**k it, and in I went - pulled like mad - then a voice in my head told me to turn round as this could infact just be miles - luckily for me, there was room to turn round and I pulled like mad back (after frustratingly pulling all the slack in :lol:). I dread to think what would have happened had there not been room to spin round (panic I guess) seemed horribly close to the limit of my breath - reckon I probably went nearly all the way there - then turned and went all the way back.

Caver C started to get into the water - and I halted proceedings and basically strongly suggested in no uncertain terms that this was stupid and that we should head back the way we came. Which we did. At mud sump we met some divers (it was phil short  :bow:) - we explained the sceanario. He informed that we must have gone down blue blah blah blah. He informed that sump 3 was 10 meters long, to an air bell - followed straight away by sump 2. 8 meters long. I began to feel concerned for Caver A.

Phil plus one, carried on to sump 3 and would dive back though to meet us in swildons 2. We hoped to find Caver A on our way back downstream - but we arrived at a murky looking sump 2. Caver D was cold and tired - so headed out with some others to hopefully find Caver A on the surface.
We waited - and waited. Finally the water began to glow - and out popped diver B. He (to our great releif) informed that Caver A had been found - OK - but a bit cold, in the Air Bell and was undergoing a cresh course in diving.

Then Caver A popped out closely followed by Phil  :bow:.

Caver A had informed that he was quite happy about the situation - the only reason he hadn't continued was because he couldnt find the start of the rope for sump 2 which was submerged under a small duck. He didn't want to dive back though because he had seen that one of us had made an attempt, but the line had gone slack without anyone arriving. He thought it best not to suddenly meet a floating obstacle on his way back through , so got himself wedged out the water, got his bivvy back on and waited. Probably the correct decesion in his situation.

Anyway - many beers where sunk that night, and there was much discussion about the rope vs dive line issue. I believe that there was discussion at the time amongst the Mendip cave rescue bods about the possible confusion.

My suggestion at the time was why not just have a tag on the end of each dive line. Sump name, depth and length. Seems like the simplist, least intrusive way to prevent similar accidents occuring.



Offline menacer

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 994
  • Craven Pothole Club
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2007, 09:09:13 pm »
OMG sorry sam didnt know it was you guys....didnt know who it was...
Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

Offline Anon

  • Nobody
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2007, 09:17:36 pm »
Why is everyone so keen on the word lucky? I would have thought stupid was more appropriate? Surely anyone attempting any sump freedive anywhere should at least make sure, double sure etc they are at the right place first... :wall:

Offline Hammy

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 352
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2007, 09:30:46 pm »
In the light of another currently topical thread on the UK Caving message board perhaps the poor soul in the Mud River Sump was the victim of 'Mean Trickery'.  :o  :-\

Good thing VivB doesn't cave in the Dales.....

Offline SamT

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6259
    • The Eldon Pothole Club
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2007, 09:40:28 pm »
Yep - good point dunc.

However - it is easy to get lost in unfamiliar caves.

Any thoughts on a name tag system

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10943
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2007, 09:52:14 pm »
Any thoughts on a name tag system

Yeah, some bastard who thought he was clever would swap 'em around.  :furious:
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

MSD

  • Guest
Re: Kingsdale Rescue
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2007, 09:57:07 pm »
Free diving sumps seems to me to be a fairly advanced caving technique. People doing it ought to:

a) Know how to make sure they are diving the right sump
b) Wear reasonable equipment.
c) Have enough sense to turn around if the situation gets sticky, i.e. longer/tighter/nastier than expected

I think it's reasonable to expect the above as a minimum. For at least 99% of people I also think it's a good idea to do your first dives with someone experienced who has dived that sump before.

Or...we could have a labelling system. While we're at it, we could also put a laminated rigging topo at the top of every pitch in the country and a signpost at every junction. Oh, and a picture of a "well dressed and equipped caver" at every entrance....

Mark