Hi Guys. Buying my first set of gear after two really good trips. This caving lark is definitely for me. Just wanted to run through with some people before I spends my money.

Most caving I'll be doing will be in the peaks I think if that affects what I'm looking at.


I'm fancying this undersuit http://www.inglesport.com/caving-equipment/caving-clothing/undersuits/warmbac-fleece-undersuit.html

Mostly because it includes some reinforced kneepads as I don't agree well with add on kneepads. Anyone reckon theres a better suit out there with inbuilt kneepads?

This oversuit http://www.inglesport.com/caving-equipment/caving-clothing/oversuits/warmbac-cordura-oversuit.html

Anyone reckon PVC would be better?

A petzl pika 3 as I can attach this to an old climbing helmet with ease (good headtorch attachments on it). Anyone got any opinion whether its better to get the one that runs on AA or the rechargeable one?

And for a back up light I was thinking I could use my fenix HL30 which I already have.


Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. I'm not hugely fussed on cost but cheaper is always preffered

If you fancy it after 2 trips it will only get better

Good undersuit, but those kneepads are an extra layer of fleece - i.e. utterly useless / unnoticeable as protection for the knees... Warmbac do make a neoprene kneepad, but it's a: scandalously expensive b: quite prone to wearing out dead quick if you actually do a lot of crawling and c: as much use as a rolled up newspaper when it comes to actually protecting your knees.
I strongly recommend you buy these ones immediately and get used to the straps: http://www.lestersdirect.co.uk/moulded_rubber_miners_type_knee_pad.html

The Warmbac cordura suit is the only one I'd consider for the Peak, yellow ones are good for big wet caves in Yorkshire etc but Derbyshire caves are small, rough, not draughty, and make you work hard.

Whilst your at it, don't mess about: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-Dunlop-Acifort-Safety-Wellingtons-Wellies-/130434893311

Don't forget the wetsuit socks.

Light wise - in my humble opinion the Pixa 3 is 'OK' but it would never be my chosen caving light.I use it when my daughter comes caving with me.

However - the big question is how much will you / can you spend? I'd pull out the stops now to spend loads of money on a light, frankly... Whether that's a 5 LED Duo which you then put a CustomDuo or Bisun module into, or straight away buy a Scurion / El Speleo / Rude Nora / Sten etc..... one ting I doubt you'll say ever is 'I wish I had less light / my battery didn't last as long...

+1 on the wetsuit socks and decent wellies. Certainly a sound investment.

The undersuit and oversuit you linked to will give good service. Try and get to somewhere to actually try them on (especially the oversuit)  rather than by  mail order if you can as the fit of the over suit can be critical if you're on the cusp of two sizes and they're not exactly stretchy!

As the previous poster indicated, the pixa 3 is an okay lamp that is tough and reasonably waterproof. Lots of hardcore caving had been done on less light. The problem lies that many cavers now sport very bright lamps and sometimes your eyes will adjust to their illumination and your own light will see dim by comparison.
The other slight downside to the pixa is the  poor runtime. Yes, carrying a couple of AA's as spares is no great hardship but changing batteries when you've been crawling through crap, are soaking wet and freezing cold can be a bit of a trial.

Plenty of threads on this forum about caving lights.  Nothing divides opinion amongst cavers like a discussion about lights........

As for batteries.... I've always gone with good quality rechargeables in my petzl duo and a set of lithiums as spares. Never needed them yet though.

Are you considering joining a club?

I think it was Andy sparrow who said regarding kneepads the answer to both these questions is no,
are they necessary?
do you ever cave without them?

ah147 said:

A petzl pika 3 as I can attach this to an old climbing helmet with ease (good headtorch attachments on it). Anyone got any opinion whether its better to get the one that runs on AA or the rechargeable one?

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I use Pixa 2's with my clients and they never complain about the level of light. The Pixa 3 adds a spot setting to this so I doubt you'd be upset by the output for your money. Personally, I'd go AA as you can carry spare batteries on longer trips and AA's are available just about anywhere. Use rechargeable AA's and you're laughing.
For similar money you could get a second hand Duo off eBay and upgrade it with a drop in module.

Knee pads - YES. Your knees will thank you in years to come.
Wetsuit Socks - YES. Personal choice, don't cave without them.
PVC suit - Most people start off with a fabric suit and upgrade to PVC eventually. Failing that, I have one of each depending on the trip. Warmbac's are the standard really with little else coming close on toughness.
Fleecy suit - Again, Warmbac are the standard used by most. Other slightly cheaper alternatives exist but unless you have a wife that makes them for you like me then Warmbacs are spot on.

Cheers fo the link about the knee pads underground, These do look like a decent bit of kit.  Once I've worn my standard issue blue ones out I think I'll try a pair of these.

About the wellies, Definitely with wet socks. But I wouldn't recommend steel toe capped ones as I've found them to be clumsy. As in finding/feeling for a foothold when there's a bit of climbing to be done or looking for your footloop.  Thinner the better in my opinion. (And cheaper!)

JRB

A few thoughts on Knee Pads:

• They protect your over suit, so even if you don't need them or like them you may get a benefit
• I've tried the miners knee pads that underground recommended above an personally didn't like them
• My undersuit (from JumpSuits) has pockets in the knees so the tradesman's knee pad inserts can be used, or bits of karimat
• I find the Beaver kneepads from Bernies are good when new but tend to wear out fairly quickly
• The Warmbak neoprene knee pads are expensive but last longer than the Beaver ones

Point taken on the kneepads. I shall take it into consideration, but I like the idea of a pocket with tradesmans pads in, could put these on elbows too!

Decent boots I'm sorted for as I have to use them for work as well. So I've just issued myself a second set.

Wet socks, so far I've been using seal skins, as I already owned them, but may get some proper neoprene ones further down the line.

Those scurion head torches look nice...I think I may be going for one of those.

Do many people still attach batteries to belts as the pack on the back of my helmet really annoyed me so far, I've noticed I get it caught on alot of things?

ah147 said:

Do many people still attach batteries to belts as the pack on the back of my helmet really annoyed me so far, I've noticed I get it caught on alot of things?

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Ideally we'll end up with something low-profile for caving, like this:



Until then we're either stuck with 30-50+ year old belt-mounted battery units which still appear in vogue among fossil collectors or the back-of-the-helmet philosophy, so admired of the helmet-with-a-carlamp-nailed-to-the-front-of-it whizzo idea. Caving is not renowned for holistic visionary innovation. Sadly. Believe it or not but some people still use ladders for going up and down. Amazing.

underground said:

but Derbyshire caves are small, rough, not draughty, and make you work hard.

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small, rough and not draughty.... with many notable exceptions......

Well I've decided I think I'm going to order a Scurion. I'm going to play with an old climbing helmet (this model)



Its a really low profile helmet, so all I'm worried about is how to attach the headlamp to it, as bolting would leave the bolts stuck in my head its so low profile.

Scurion do a head cradle so no holes needed and you can use it above ground without looking like a plonker.
Love my original P4 Scurion and the new Basic model seems like a good deal considering RudeNoras seem to only be made in months beginning with an A.

ah147 said:

Do many people still attach batteries to belts as the pack on the back of my helmet really annoyed me so far, I've noticed I get it caught on a lot of things?

Click to expand...

As someone who returned to caving a few years ago after a break of many years, the innovation I rated most was the introduction of LED lamps with light, helmet-mounted batteries.  Belt-mounted batteries are invariably in the wrong position in squeezes or meanders, and if they don't get caught on something, then the sodding cable does.

Having said that, if your helmet falls down a big 'ole, then you are covered in confusion

Personally, I wouldn't shell out on a Scurion, but then I'm a tight git ...

Just bought the new petzl trios ultra (I think its called) its really good but expensive ?350  :-[  My old light was a hope mountain bike one which was really bright but not really up to getting bashed about in caves. 

ah147 said:

Do many people still attach batteries to belts as the pack on the back of my helmet really annoyed me so far, I've noticed I get it caught on alot of things?

Click to expand...

That's as nothing compared to the getting-caught-on-things potential for belt batteries. The battery is always in exactly the wrong place whenever you go through a tight crawl, and does its best to take out your ribs. And even if the battery isn't causing you problems, the cable hooks on to everything you go past.

The only advantage of a belt mounted battery is to act as a tether should you ever be somewhere where you might drop your helmet.

kay said:

The only advantage of a belt mounted battery is to act as a tether should you ever be somewhere where you might drop your helmet.

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True, but if you haven't got your helmet and chinstrap adjusted so that the helmet cannot just fall off accidentally, it wouldn't be much use to prevent head injury in the case of a fall.

I agree with the pain of waist-mounted batteries and the attendant cable.

cavermark said:

underground said:

but Derbyshire caves are small, rough, not draughty, and make you work hard.

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small, rough and not draughty.... with many notable exceptions......

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Yes, I was being over general! However for most of *my* caving, in the Peak, excepting the big, draughty, wet caves, I'd use a warmbac as a PVC would be wrecked in short order...

TheBitterEnd said:

A few thoughts on Knee Pads:

• They protect your over suit, so even if you don't need them or like them you may get a benefit
• I've tried the miners knee pads that underground recommended above an personally didn't like them
• My undersuit (from JumpSuits) has pockets in the knees so the tradesman's knee pad inserts can be used, or bits of karimat
• I find the Beaver kneepads from Bernies are good when new but tend to wear out fairly quickly
• The Warmbak neoprene knee pads are expensive but last longer than the Beaver ones

Click to expand...

I hated the miners pads at first, they seemed bulky and the straps were painful if done up tight enough to hold them in place. Weekly crawls into Bagshawe have meant that all of that is mi or by comparison to the battering my knees were taking, and now wouldn't be without them- they outlast any other pads I've ever had massively, talking years.

Agreed on the warmbac vs beaver comment. I've also started wearing warmbac elbow pads, part for a little bit of cushioning, part to save shredding over suits so quickly...

Just one contribution on the battery pack on back of helmet debate:-

I also dislike the battery on the back, so have ended up with a KSE light, self contained unit around ?100.
They don't make my old one anymore, but it has lasted 4 - 5 years and still has a "reasonable" light - not in Scurion territory.
I believe the latest KSEs have more light
www.kselights.com

KevinR

underground said:

I hated the miners pads at first, they seemed bulky and the straps were painful if done up tight enough to hold them in place.

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It could be down to knee shape, I found that they rotated to the sides.