Author Topic: bca meeting 25/3 /2017  (Read 28535 times)

Offline badger

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #425 on: June 30, 2017, 05:54:43 pm »
didn't see many people putting there hand up for positions on the bca at the agm

and if you think the people on the council would not give up their positions for their empire then I suggest you talk to them many would be more than happy for someone to volunteer themselves

so carry on knocking the bca and do nothing about it, you want to change it then do something about, its your association,

Online NewStuff

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #426 on: June 30, 2017, 06:13:43 pm »
...you want to change it then do something about, its your association,

You know that bit where a vote was held? Yeah, that was people giving a shit and doing something. Badlad is doing something.

Look where it's got us. With only one exception I can think of being badlad's efforts, we're in the same place we were before, and I'm not surprised at apathy, given that it appears to make no difference to what actually happens.

So, remind me... why should people bother?
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Offline droid

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #427 on: June 30, 2017, 07:35:29 pm »
How many people or clubs would be part of BCA if it wasn't for the insurance?

That might well explain part of the apathy NewStuff references.
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Offline badger

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #428 on: July 02, 2017, 10:23:32 am »
why should we bother, cause if we are not bothered the minority win.

so please those that at most vocal, carry on complaining, and whinging, but when nothing changed, look in the mirror (this is aimed at everyone, it is not personal). or like badlad try and do something about it. get involved,

when the postal (or by other means) vote comes out fill it in. send it back,

Online NewStuff

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #429 on: July 02, 2017, 11:02:59 am »
Why should people put in any effort is a few people can make all that effort seem like pissing in the wind?

You say get involved, look in the mirror... I did both, and look where it got me. One prat has decided that knowingly endangering my job is a legitimate tactic to try to silence me. Over caving. That's the levels that these they will stoop to. That's why they get labelled as dirty and underhanded, that's why most people will not get involved. Anything is fair game.

We decided we would rather go caving than get all pissed off that a few seem to have decided that the majority of those that voted are in fact wrong, and therefore nothings going to change. So we left the BCA and we go caving, and the BCA can sort itself, or not. Either way, I'll deal with any future political threats to me in my way, I'm done playing nice with them, and I can play far dirtier than they can imagine.

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Offline Pegasus

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #430 on: July 02, 2017, 11:23:19 am »
Administrator Comment Can we please tone it down, thank you

Online notdavidgilmour

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #431 on: October 11, 2017, 07:12:04 pm »
The finances of the Tahdah "family" of companies seem like an absolute car crash.  Should the BCA really be gambling it's member's money?

Something that was also discussed at the BCA meeting, was the fact that individual members would have to subscribe (pay) for premium membership to enjoy full functionality of the software.  It would be interesting to know just how "functional" the software is without paying the premium, and also, how much premium membership would cost.

This also poses another question;  If something was to happen to the software provider, who would be responsible for refunding the members who had paid for premium membership?  Would those members just be left out of pocket or would the BCA be obliged to refund them?  If the latter was the case, this is pushing the amount of financial risk to the BCA higher and higher.

Comments at the meeting suggesting that the BCA could afford the financial loss did get my goat a little I must say.  It is very easy to gamble with money that doesn't belong to you.

Sorry for dragging this one up again, but my concerns regarding Tahdah AKA Blah d Blah have become a reality.  I only hope the BCA haven't thrown too much of "our" money at them.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/blah-d-blah-boss-says-13744157
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Offline Stuart France

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #432 on: October 11, 2017, 10:08:16 pm »
Members of BCA's executive stated at their council meeting last Saturday 7th October that the Tahdah / Blah d Blah etc training management software companies were now financially secure, having obtained a recent government grant, and that although no contract had yet been signed by BCA that the way was now open to sign one.

I paraphrase, of course, but this is as I remember it unfolding.  The council meeting was digitally recorded.

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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #434 on: October 11, 2017, 10:15:02 pm »
Can someone, who knows, clarify how much (if anything) we lost please?

Thanks.

Ian
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Offline Stuart France

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #435 on: October 12, 2017, 12:17:10 am »
Regarding the above North Wales press article about a recent winding-up order brought against Blah D Blah and comments from director Neil Rylance.

A Neil Rylance has a terminated directorship of a North Wales residential care services company called Touchstones12 recorded at Companies House as recently as 21st September 2017.

A Neil Rylance is also a current director of Blah D Blah Design Ltd, Pathfinder Systems Ltd, and Tahdah Verified Ltd.  These are North Wales companies involved in advertising, software design, and IT services respectively.  As it happens, Tahdah used to be called Pathfinder Systems Ltd.  The current Pathfinder Systems Ltd is a different entity with a different company registration number.  Acting BCA Treasurer Robin Weare presented a "due diligence" report to BCA council on the financial health and prospects of these companies.  Like Robin, you too can read their accounts and filing histories for yourself at companieshouse.gov.uk

I have asked questions in BCA council more than once this year about BCA proposing to enter into a long-term business relationship with Tahdah.  I have attended all the council meetings since mid-2016, and I have been told each time that:
(a) no money has been paid by BCA to any of these companies
(b) no contract has been signed by BCA with any of these companies.

So that's alright then.


Online nickwilliams

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #436 on: October 12, 2017, 12:27:31 am »
I can confirm that no contract has been signed and no money has been paid by BCA to any of the Pathfinder group companies.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #437 on: October 12, 2017, 12:28:38 am »
Good News  :thumbsup:
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Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #438 on: October 12, 2017, 01:34:43 am »
Still, wasn't this a no brainer to use them about 6 months ago as 'the mountain teams were using them?' I recall that some alarms were being raised though. Anyway, glad that no money was lost.
As an aside, how much were they charging?


Offline mikem

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #439 on: October 12, 2017, 08:02:07 am »
Apparently it wasn't, as the committee couldn't come to a consensus. Costs etc are in the minutes:
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:council_meetings:council_minutes_2017-03-25.pdf

Interesting that there appears to be no mention of this by BMC or UKClimbing...

Mike

Offline Stuart France

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #440 on: October 12, 2017, 03:05:59 pm »
The following data can be gleaned from the latest accounts of the Pathfinder group of companies filed at Companies House.  I am not an accountant, but I was in school on the day that negative numbers were explained.

Fathfinder Systems Ltd is a dormant company with fixed assets of £100K believed to represent the notional value of bespoke software it owns, plus current assets of £20K.  On the negative side its creditors £120K which leaves the capital and reserves at £121 (that's pounds not thousands - it buys two tanks of petrol).

Blah D Blah Design Ltd has fixed assets of £6K, stock £16K, debtors owe it £326K, and it has £1 in cash or in the bank (this buys two second class postage stamps).  Creditors are shown at £295K, which leaves net assets of £53K.  This is the company that has entered into a non-trading Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) according to media reports.

Tahdah Verified Ltd has fixed assets of £4K, current assets £20K, creditors £210K.  Net assets stand at minus £186K, capital and reserves are minus £236K.  The company's accounts don't show what is in the bank.  It has extended its accounting period (thus postponed filing its accounts) twice.  This is the company that BCA has been thinking of dealing with.

Combine these companies' reserves or net worth and the answer comes to less than nothing.

It seems all the people on BCA Executive are current or former directors of companies.  How can experienced people allow themselves to be persuaded to recommend investing BCA funds, and in so doing hazard the future of BCA Cave Leader/Instructor training, on such as this?

I suggest a new thread to discuss BCA cave instructor training.  It is in a mess, but it is a redeemable mess as the number of LCLs and CICs is modest.  It doesn't need big bucks to sort out, but it does need the various factions to embrace goodwill and an outbreak of common sense.

Online alastairgott

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #441 on: October 12, 2017, 03:52:38 pm »
How can experienced people allow themselves to be persuaded to recommend investing BCA funds, and in so doing hazard the future of BCA Cave Leader/Instructor training, on such as this?

I don't think it's unusual for companies to "sail close to the wind". clearly in this case it was too close, as the news articles have pointed out. with foresight it was touch and go, with 20/20 hindsight it would have been a car crash.

It's only when you know that they must have had a sizeable bank overdraft (probably 10's-100's of thousands) that you know it was a non starter.
 But who knew? they could have sold the lot to another (bigger) company and all would have been fine.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #442 on: October 12, 2017, 05:10:03 pm »
With all due respect, I think you ought to delve a little deeper.  Think raising further cash from new shareholders: that's a form of selling a company.  Think borrowing from banks secured by debenture where the bank can seize anything and everything if repayments are defaulted or the bank decides to foreclose.

You're an expert on selling a small company?  Normal buyers value a company on sustainable profit, return on capital employed, share price to EBITDA, ability to generate free cash to pay one's way in the world and pay sustained or growing dividends to shareholders.  There's earnings, and then there's quality earnings: it's nice to have a load of loyal clients that will definitely pay you, ideally on time, and not go out of business themselves.

The accounts suggest a deficit of hundreds of thousands of pounds and growing.  How is this ever going to turn good when the clients have only the financial strength of BCA Training or Mountain Training?  How many sports governing body training organisations are there out there as potential clients, and is the likely annual profit generated from each one going to fix the deficit, assuming there is some profit?

It doesn't add up.  It never did.  Robin Weare hoisted enough red flags.  Nobody listened to him.


Offline Les W

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #443 on: October 12, 2017, 05:11:51 pm »
It doesn't add up.  It never did.  Robin Weare hoisted enough red flags.  Nobody listened to him.

That's not entirely true Stuart, quite a few people listened to him...
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Offline Badlad

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #444 on: October 12, 2017, 05:18:25 pm »
Let's just say a lucky escape.  QMS urgently needs a new system which was the unfortunate driving force here.  Sadly back to square one with no option quite as tantalising as the Tadaha scheme left on the table.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #445 on: October 12, 2017, 08:27:32 pm »
Sadly back to square one with no option quite as tantalising as the Tadaha scheme left on the table.
Not quite true.  My understanding was that Tahdah was identified a long while ago as a suitable product.  But following concerns expressed in & out side Council, a User Specification was produced within BCA for the processes required to serve the LCMLA and CIC award schemes.  Two systems were tested against it, being Tahdah and Northbridge.  Both meet the Spec but I understood that all those involved agreed Tahdah was better. 

However the fly in the ointment was the financial stability question.  I understood that that question was resolved a couple of weeks ago.  Hence Andy's report to the just gone October Council meeting stating "After very careful consideration and investigation, Tahdah has been appointed as provider of the training database, although the contract has not yet been signed."  So perhaps Tahdah still lives despite the fate of a Blah D Blah.  And I understood Northbridge remains an option.

From my (ex) vantage point, although it took a lot of effort and debate, it did appear to me that the task had been conducted in a prudent manner albeit not time efficiently.

Offline Spike

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #446 on: October 14, 2017, 09:22:59 am »
Is the User Specification available anywhere Bob? I couldn't find it in any of the recent BCA minutes...

Offline mattwire

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #447 on: October 14, 2017, 10:36:07 am »
The spec that was produced following my insistence at the March Meeting can be found here (I just uploaded it): http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:council_meetings:start

In view of this latest news I feel completely vindicated about my reservations with Tahdah.  Had I not insisted on a spec being drawn up and a proper process being followed we could now be in a situation where contracts had been signed and members money lost.  The product itself looked good, but the public accounts have always looked extremely dodgy.

Online nickwilliams

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #448 on: October 14, 2017, 11:36:12 am »
It needs to be pointed out that the company which has gone into administration is Blah-d-Blah, not Tahdah Verified Ltd, who are the company which BCA was negotiating with. Tahdah's service is still operational.

Robin Weare (BCA Treasurer) has spent a considerable amount of time looking at the financial relationships behind Tahdah. He is currently away on an expedition and so no further progress is going to be made on this until he returns in November.
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Online notdavidgilmour

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Re: bca meeting 25/3 /2017
« Reply #449 on: October 14, 2017, 06:59:43 pm »
Surely the BCA wouldn't even entertain using a company run by the same director.......... Run in a similar fashion.......... Would they? :spank:
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