Youd's Level Retirement Plan

[pwhole]

After some below-stairs discussion at Cave Registry headquarters, we've decided that the name 'Youd's Level', as applied to Ringing Rake Sough in Matlock Bath, is no longer an appropriate name for this system - at least for our purposes. As future editions of COPD will be derived from the new and ever-expanding database being built, it seems appropriate to maintain correct names throughout - this name was applied affectionally but temporarily for the guy who accidentally discovered the level in 1977, and it's hardly accurate today.

Also it means that Gentlewoman's Pipe, an arguably more important (and more popular) system currently has no entry of its own, and the only way you can find out about it is by reading 'Youd's Level' backwards uphill, which is silly really, as Gentlewoman's is actually part of the Great Masson system topographically and geologically - though it has some important differences. It's also part-natural throughout, with valuable sediment deposits in places, and this should be recognised, not least so that future visitors respect and don't damage it.

We think that the best solution is to create two entries, one for Gentlewoman's Pipe, with the direction of travel downhill to the connection with Old Jant Mine. The other would be for Ringing Rake Sough, connecting (via the coffin-level of Masson Sough) to Old Jant Mine, as that was the sough's destination. Gentlewoman's was earlier, and was pumped dry to surface. As the usual Gentlewoman's shaft entrance is still blocked, this is a good opportunity to revise the system whilst folks aren't visiting. This also makes trips that are started from the river trapdoor more clear to those who've never been before - and they will almost certainly not exit via the quarry shaft at the top of Masson Hill! Naturally we will inform PDMHS of our name change as it will have nostalgic connotations for many, but I think we need to maintain clarity as we go forward.

Any serious objections? Other than nostalgia?

 

[wellyjen]

From our discussion around this time last year, it would solve the problem of where the apostrophe goes! I've no objection. On the CCPC rigging guide it is currently called Youds' level (also known as Ringing Rake Sough). It becoming Ringing Rake Sough (sometimes known as Youd's Level) isn't a problem. Is there any plan to change the name of Day Shaft, which drops in to it? This is another non-historical name.
Jen

 

[pwhole]

Well it was Stuart Youd who discovered it, so I believe the apostrophe to be correct. Don't get me started on apostrophes or we'll be here all day, and probably with more YouTube videos

Personally I'd like to rename them all correctly, not least as Gentlewoman's Engine Shaft is also called 'Queen Shaft', and which is blocked, whilst the regular entrance shaft doesn't have a name, even though everyone calls it 'Gentlewoman's Shaft'! I think there's enough material for an online conference here

 

[Brains]

Give them proper names AND get the shafts reopened / capped in a suitable manner... Hoping to explore some of the system later in the year 

 

[pwhole]

We went out last week and got accurate grid refs for the top three shafts as we know where Deep Shaft is, but didn't have accurate fixes on the others. If we can negotiate access to Upper Close Shaft that would be a huge help and make shorter trips possible, and without the pissing-about hauling 12 harnesses back up a tiny slot afterwards after a riverside exit. But the farm would have to allow cavers access to their land, and we don't as yet know whether they would as we haven't asked them. Queen Shaft is on HoA land, but has a huge concrete blob on top of a concrete slab that is immoveable, though it does have a hole in the side, though too small to be sensible (below). The original docs suggested this was blocked at surface, but I dunno whether that means by this cap, or there's more further down.

 

[pwhole]

Incidentally, does anyone have a decent photo of the top shaft in Gentlewoman's, pre-blockage? I have seen one or two somewhere, possibly on here, but unsure.

 

[Fishes]

I'm pretty sure there were some photos of the shaft top  floating around after the Derbyshire rope trick rescue there a few years ago.  Bill W might have a copy.

Most people know the sough as Youd's Level so  I would suggest its continued use but also use the original name. That helps people tie it it with old trip reports etc.

 

[alastairgott]

Objection your honour, I?ve only known it as youds! Gentlewomans-youds has a certain ring to it. But I guess gentlewomans-ringing probably has a better ring to it.

I will probably still call it youds.

 

[pwhole]

I've got a photo now, thanks. I'm definitely going to add the Gentlewoman's entry shortly so expect a bit of tweakage while I remove the bits that overlap or cancel each other out.

And yes, we do have the 'alternative name', which was, ironically Ringing Rake Sough. I think at least they should now be reversed!

 

[Pete K]

Do it. I think using a site's historically accurate name, if we know it, will help others in the future when it comes to research. These mines have names given to them by the miners who worked them, that is a historical record as important as a town name. We do of course need to be sensitive that changing the name here or anywhere is also removing a historical record as well, but relating to the discovery and exploration. There is no harm with having the given name listed prominently too as a nod to the discoverer and to assist cavers get used to the rebrand and match old 'Youd's' records to the new name.

 

[pwhole]

I've created a new entry for Gentlewoman's, and amended the entry for Ringing Rake Sough - 'Youd's Level' is now the AKA name in both:

https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/derwent-south/gentlewoman-s-pipe

https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/derwent-south/youds-level-ringing-rake-sough

Obviously the bulk of the text is hidden (the future COPD body text), but access info as always is provided. As the entrance shaft to Gentlewoman's is still currently blocked, this is all future-proofing, but rest assured we are working on it. Any comments, please let me know.

 

[wellyjen]

I'll update the CCPC rigging guide at some point soon. Thanks for not breaking the link!. Any chance of an entry for Deep/Day Shaft? There is a grid reference and description in CotPD under Youds, along with those for other shafts that once dropped in to the sough.

 

[pwhole]

Yep, it'll probably end up as another 'group' entry, as the shafts listed on their own may be a bit odd as they all connect to one of the two already-named entries. I'm reluctant to list shafts where we don't (yet) have access agreements for fear of encouraging illegal access. Blocked shafts may also be pointless listing?

Incidentally, while we're on this, does anyone know the provenance of 'Scaffold Pole Rift Shaft'? It's grid ref. is currently identical to Deep Shaft, but I know nothing about it, or where it actually is - I suspect not far away. There is a ref to an Orpheus newsletter so hopefully I can get it clarified before too long!

 

[wellyjen]

The CCPC Peak District Rigging Guide has been updated. The name of this topo is now Deep Shaft. I've referenced the other names, Day Shaft and Youds', so hopefully it won't be too confusing. There has been a bit of shuffling round to keep the topos in alphabetical order within the Derwent South section, which has affected the page numbers for a couple of other topos, as well as the contents and index pages.
Jen

 

[pwhole]

Right, I've added a new entry for Deep Shaft as a separate entity, with links for Gentlewoman's and Ringing Rake Sough in the access body text, and the same to Deep Shaft from those two pages. We're getting there (phew):

https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/derwent-south/deep-shaft

 

[benshannon]

On a side note. How likely is it that gentlewoman's shaft will be accessible again one day?

 

[pwhole]

Hahah - are you asking for odds? How much have you got? This likely... :-\

It is being discussed regularly, but it's ultimately not our land, so we can only keep trying and hoping. We got zero response to our previous enquiries. Ideally we'd remove the lot and fit a proper lid with a Derbyshire key, as the current set-up isn't exactly rescue-friendly or safe even if open. You have to be able to bend 90? with tiptoes on the ginging to get in or out, and most stretchers don't have hinges - and that top boulder must be approaching four tons. And the anchors are underneath, loaded axially with no rebelay.

If we could gain access to Upper Close (Overseer) Shaft that would remove half of the arduous and wet uphill trip for those who mainly wanted to explore the (totally dry) top sections, so it would be a huge help in the interim. But it would mean accessing farm land that probably hasn't granted access for 20-odd years, so that will take time to negotiate, and it's not so straightforward with Covid, even if they're happy in principle. No idea yet what routes might be required, etc.

 

[benshannon]

Fair. Thank you for trying 😁

 

[owd git]

Hahah - are you asking for odds? How much have you got?

The odds are shortening, in my opinion. Shhh. !!  :halo:

 

[ttxela2]

Anyone been in recently? Is the river end still a bit sewagey....