With the CNCC AGM fast approaching I?m hoping many clubs and cavers will attend the meeting.  (10am, Saturday 1st March, Hellifield Institute)

I have spoken to a number of northern clubs who are surprised that they are not full members of CNCC and therefore have no voting rights.  I have also spoken to a lot of people who are surprised that so many ?remnant? clubs with just a couple of members left are still able to have such an influence on northern caving.  I can shed some light on why this is the case.

Prior to 2004 clubs had to subscribe annually to CNCC.  It was therefore easy to keep track of who was a member.  Since 2004 BCA has been funding the CNCC as the regional caving council and clubs no longer needed to pay a subscription.  Ten years on there has been no change and no new members and the list has fallen into disrepair.  The present secretary and treasurer of the CNCC also claim, for poorly justified reasons, that this list must remain secret.  We do know, however, that there are around 50 member clubs on the list of which about 20 have folded over the last ten years.  Although the really big Dales clubs will still be present, a number of the remaining clubs only have two or three members and are expected to be amongst the 15-20 voting clubs at the AGM. 

BCA member clubs are only associate members of CNCC and although that does give them access to permits it does not give them a right to vote.

What is interesting is that at least five of the full member clubs, identified from recent published minutes, are not listed as being members of BCA.  So, although BCA members contribute to the CNCC by their subscriptions, most of them do not get a vote, and clearly some of those who don?t contribute ? do get one.

Certainly this anomaly needs fixing soon, but I don?t see anything specific on the AGM agenda that even requires this to be discussed. 

I?d encourage all clubs to send a representative to the meeting next Saturday, whether they have a vote or not.  At the AGM it will be very easy to be proposed for membership and therefore your club can have a say in the future modernisation of the CNCC which is so desperately needed.

I'm not sure about DCA  but for the Cambrian and CSCC, any member club that is not a member of BCA - and therefore declared on their BCA return as such - has to pay an annual subto the regional council. These two things together make it quite straightforward to keep track of an up to date club membership list.

Those clubs that are

surprised that they are not full members of CNCC

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should check what they put on their BCA returns at the end of the year.

Being a member of BCA only makes a club an associate member of CNCC and no voting rights, even if they nominate CNCC as their regional council on the BCA membership form.

The only full members of CNCC are those who survive from 2004 and these are not publically known.

Regardless of whether a club is a member of the BCA they have to apply to be a full member of the CNCC. There are several fair sized northern clubs who are not full members and should be. Glenn might be promted to call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel a need to point out the fact that it has been in the interest of the 'junta' not to encourage clubs to become full members.

Badlad said:

We do know, however, that there are around 50 member clubs on the list of which about 20 have folded over the last ten years. 

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If subs are not an issue, and these clubs are still on the books, whats to stop someone taking the name of one of the folded clubs and automatically becoming a full member (In effect "reforming" the club)?

There are a few different tactics that could be employed and that is the obvious reason why they want to keep hold of all the cards and keep the list of full members to themselves.

Interesting and rather odd.

Now, I may be wrong about this next bit & would like it to be corrected, if possible, but I thought that one of the criteria used to assess the size of the BCA grant aid to a regional body was its size. I rather thought that this was why clubs did have to state their primary affiliation on their BCA return. I accept and understand the  details about associate membership, that's not the same point at all.

In an attempt to keep this thread on track!

Northern Caving Needs You!

I will be standing for Access Officer at the forthcoming CNCC AGM in March. After attending a number of committee meetings recently I believe that the best way to assist the CNCC is to get involved. I live in the Dales and am aware of access issues. It's clear that over the last few years at the CNCC too much work has been done by too few people, as nobody has been willing to stand for positions. It's unfair to ask the current officers to continue covering numerous roles.

It's also important to ensure that you are represented through your club rep.

John Latimer

What is the best way for a club to find out if it is a member of CNCC with voting rights?

I know SUSS used to pay a subscription to CNCC before BCA was formed - does that mean they had voting rights?

John Latimer 

cavermark said:

What is the best way for a club to find out if it is a member of CNCC with voting rights?

I know SUSS used to pay a subscription to CNCC before BCA was formed - does that mean they had voting rights?

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Last night I emailed the CNCC secretary, asking pretty much the same question about the membership status of the BRCC. No reply as yet but I assume this is the way to go about it. 

Further to the above; received a response regarding membership. It sounds like you could join CNCC (paying subs) as an associate to start with (gaining access to permits), then after a period of time, if your club wanted to, become a full member. BRCC never bothered with 'politics' so stayed associate and thus has no eligibility to vote. 

dunc said:

BRCC never bothered with 'politics' so stayed associate and thus has no eligibility to vote. 

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Unfortunately, it would appear that your club has done precisely what the CNCC controlling clique wanted (and expected) you to do.

It certainly has Nig but has it ever stopped us going where we want when we want?

The following can apply to all clubs.

At present, most university clubs have no say in the running of the Council of Northern Caving Clubs (CNCC), the regional body which represents cavers in the north of England.  University cavers play an important role in caving demographics and should be represented, especially as your subs to BCA help fund the CNCC.

There is a move to change and modernise the CNCC for the better and your help is needed to do this.  Realistically, the position I believe you need to get to is to have a CHECC representative on the CNCC committee.  (It may surprise you to know that CHECC is not well known in CNCC).  This would give you a voice when organising CHECC events in the Dales and help prevent university cavers from getting singled out for punitive treatment from regional and national council.

In order to ensure CHECC representation change is needed to the CNCC constitution, and only CNCC full members can vote for change.  University clubs should attend the CNCC AGM and get voted in as full member clubs.  It is only then that you can influence future change.

The CNCC AGM takes place this coming Saturday, 10am, 1st March at the Hellifield Institute (25 minutes by car, south of Ingleton on the A65).  Please send somebody to represent your club.  At the meeting you will find a member club to propose your application to join.  If you are coming as your club rep, you will need an official letter from your club secretary nominating you as such.  See you there.

Tim Allen
Actively promoting change for the better.

Tim,

Just to clarify things:

If an Associate Member Club (e.g. BRCC, possibly represented by Pete or Dunc!) were to attend the meeting, would they be guaranteed being upgraded to Full Member status if they chose to apply?

Similarly, if a club attends who is not a member at any level can they apply for Full Membership straight away or would they have to become an Associate Member first? If they wanted to become a Full Member Club from the outset what (realistically) are their chances of being voted in?

Thanks.

Similarly, if a club where voted in at this AGM, would they be allowed to vote at the same meeting? (agenda order is significant)

My understanding of the constitution is that all BCA registered clubs are automatically considered considered associate members, so you do not have to become one.

To become a full member club (which is required for your club representative to vote), as Badlad has said, requires an application letter signed by a club official to say that your club wishes to apply for full membership at the 2014 AGM. Assuming you are also the person intending to vote on behalf of your club if the application is successful, this letter should also state that you have permission of your club to represent them at the meeting and in voting (i.e. that you are entitled to act as your club representative). This system exists to authenticate that people are truely representing their clubs (and not standing/applying without their clubs knowledge or consent).

Whether a club that gets accepted as a full member at the meeting is able to then vote in the elections is unclear, however, I see no reason not to commence full membership (with voting rights) with immediate effect.

I'm sure if you are planning on applying for full membership for your club it would be helpful to submit your application letter to the current committee over the next few days to allow the agenda to be finalised (but also bring it on the day).

Applications for full membership will be voted on at the AGM. Assuming you are a BCA-registered caving club, and someone has made the effort to come to the AGM to represent your club, I can't see any valid reason why you would not be proposed, seconded and unanimously accepted.

I, as with Badlad, hope to see lots of clubs represented at this AGM, hopefully a sign of greater involvement and representation of cavers with the CNCC in the future. There has obviously been a number of grievances expressed here over the last month, and the strength of the language has been strong. I would urge those attending the AGM to remain calm and professional, and to attend with a positive and forward-looking attitude, rather than dwell on what you feel has been done wrong in the past. There is clearly going to be change at this meeting - there is no doubt about this - which is what many people are wanting. Therefore it is important that this AGM is conducted efficiently and professionally to ensure the changes are able to be made and we are able to move forward with making the CNCC a more representative regional body.

For anyone attending the AGM, the meets secretarys and officers annual reports are now available to read on the CNCC website (meetings page, left hand side).

Below are the 2014 CNCC Chairman?s Remarks circulated in advance of the AGM.

This year 2013/14 has been a bit chaotic especially in the last few months. Some success has been achieved with access now available to Fairy Caves in Weardale thanks to English Nature and our own access officer, and the good cooperation of La'farge. Not all negotiations have been successful as some landowners are truly anti caving but undeterred our access officer and E.N. keep trying on your behalf.
The current nit picking by some member clubs and other individuals has not been helpful, no constitution is perfect and never will be, we can all pick holes in it. Our constitution is not perfect and needs to be altered to reflect changes in modern caving practices and techniques where the days are over of large numbers of cavers being essential to access the bottom of any cave in  our area.
I am of the opinion that the large amount of work being done by our officers and permit secretaries has never been fully appreciated by the caving community, maybe we don't shout our own praises enough, but why should we have to? The proof of the actions is in the access to all member clubs of both CNCC and BCA to more caves than ever.
Testing of anchors
Fitting of anchors
Publishing rigging guides
Negotiating with landowners
Drawing up legally binding agreements 
Issuing permits 
Organising remedial work to access and entrances
Organising removing of rubbish from inside and around caves
Attending meetings
Are just some of the work carried out on your behalf by CNCC officers and permit secretaries, no one gets paid for the very large amount of time these commitments take up, we would all like to go caving more often or even see a bit more of our families. 
Here's to plenty of caving in the next 12 months.
Roy Holmes <<<

At the January meeting the officers could not name the 14 committee member clubs. For several years ballots at committee meetings have been taken with no regard for who the committee members are. It?s hardly ?nit picking? to object to officers showing total disregard for the constitution and for the correct conduct of meetings.

I have to agree with Roy when he says that he is, ?of the opinion that the large amount of work being done by our officers and permit secretaries has never been fully appreciated?. The anchor programme has been in complete disarray for four years. Negotiations with landowners on commercial caving have taken place against the wishes of the Association of Caving Instructors. The CNCC has been operating two permit systems. One is the normal permit system for use by the vast majority of cavers and diggers. The other was a ?digging permit? system under which permits were issued with no regard to any rules by a person who was not the permit secretary to a small exclusive group. And it appears that the majority of permits were issued in this clandestine way. People might be surprised to learn that sometimes a monthly permit was issued with all the vacant days for a month on one permit.

Roy says, ?The proof of the actions is in the access to all member clubs...? I think most cavers would expect access to be for all member clubs on an equal basis. So yes, ?the proof of the actions is? that the CNCC has not been run for the benefit of all members.

It's also unfortunate that Roy insists on referring to English Nature, an organisation that  hasn't existed since 2006! It has been since then,  Natural England...