Just an update on the system and what's been happening really. Not a 'club statement' but some info and thoughts as there seems to be some conflicting stories and possibly confusion of late. Hope I can throw some light on it. We've recently been spending a lot of time checking routes, fixed aids and the general condition in parts of the mine as an agreement on access has been reached between us ( Grosvenor caving club ) and other parties again.
Going back a few years, some maintenance work had to be carried out in the mine by contractors and the place had to become a working mine again for legal/insurance reasons , we were asked to refrain from entering for the duration of the work. lt was our responsibilty to keep the access locked ( conditions of 3 seperate agreements ) as we still had access to the short level that leads to the main shaft, which we use to store club equipment. After several years and a lot of negotiations, the working area has been reduced so we can have access for recreational underground activities once again, the only real problem is that the ladder way in Olwyn goch shaft has been condemned after inspection and the owner has forbidden access on safety grounds.
Sadly, the lid has been broken off on numerous occasions,  it's even been hurled down the shaft. I wont say too much about it as I struggle to see any sense in acts like that. It could have smashed the ladders and decks or damaged the already old shaft lining near the bottom. The mind boggles.
Anyway, back to the story, a lot of work is underway, new routes, ladders and lines are going in, we want to start taking a few trips down there again in the future, its just a matter of time before we are happy with things. The club is proud of its safety record and it'd be lunacy to jeopardise it.
Sadly ( once again ) a major part of the most recent work trip was made impossible by 'persons unknown' climbing up the condemned ladderway so they could break the lock off and replace it with their own. This meant we couldnt get in to get our own equipment to use to make the routes safer and to take a lot of the hard work out of travelling around the place. In short, it's set us back weeks.
We've been locked out for years, it's caused all kinds of trouble and all we've had is repeated break ins and vandalism.  Even safety lines have been cut and the  jammers been stolen. I think we may have been made out to be the devil of all caving clubs from time to time too.
If you know who changes locks or breaks lids, could you have a word with them ? Give us a chance. We're trying to get things back to nomal and things like this stop work, cause ill feeling and just slows everything down.
In  a long winded nutshell, that's about it, we're back in and chomping at the bit.
It's a very big, very important mine system. I hope it stays accessable for years to come and that future visitors have a safe trip and enjoy it as much as those in the past have.

That's good to hear, been over 10 years since I was last there and I agree, it's big and interesting! Always fancied a return visit.

Will access be via just OG or will other entrances be available?

How soon do you plan to "take trips" down there again?

who do you actually have the access agreement with and how come coed hendre which was open for years is now locked?

We haven't got a date set to resume trips yet, still got work to do and a bit of organising before we're ready.
There are other access points to the system, I'm not certain what the details are for these though.
Our arrangements are with the same people as before, the land owner (private land) the mine and mineral rights owners, they all instruct us to lock access points. We also use the O.G. and coed hendre levels for storing club equipment , such as timber, scaff and digging gear.

do you have a rough idea on a time scale then?

I don't mean to sound arsey, as that's not what is intended, but to be fair, it must be 4 or 5 years now that people have been saying that access will be possible "quite soon", but there has been no word what so ever, and with all the ridiculous politics with regard to access to anything in wales, especially north wales, i just see more people talking about something that will never happen, as you say, this isn't a club statement, it is just a bit of chit/chat.

I'm also confused as to what your intentions are if it ever does happen, in your first post you say "we want to start taking a few trips down there again in the future"

But in your last post you say there are other access points, this would indicate i could get in there without entering via OG or coed hendre, does this mean as a green card holder, if i find an alternative access point, under your access agreement i have permission to be in the Milwr, if this is the case, it may be a good idea to post details on what areas your agreement covers, this may help stop other people upsetting the land owners / UU / whoever is responsible for the bits you don't have permission to be in.

We've been locked out for 5 years and when asked, we always hoped it would be opened again soon. It's been a frustrating and long wait until we gained access again but unfortunately, our hands were tied as it wasn't our decision to make. We had no option but to wait.
Personally, i'm not sure what the deal is with the other areas sorry.

Regarding the terms of this access agreement, I would be interested to know whether they were dictated by the landowner or suggested by the controlling caving club (GCC). If purely the former, did GCC make any attempts to secure a more liberal agreement? If the answer to this is anything other than a massive 'YES' then it is hardly surprising that there have been problems concerning the switching of locks and removal of gates. Reading between the lines of mad-dan's queries and Carter's evasive responses it appears to me that, sadly, these problems are more than likely to continue even after the new access agreement becomes operational.

Carter said:

We've been locked out for 5 years

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Bullshit. You (GCC) have been back in for at least a year. You have denied and lied about access when asked openly about it.

Carter said:

It's been a frustrating and long wait

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I think the whole exploration community agrees with that.

Carter said:

but unfortunately, our hands were tied as it wasn't our decision to make. We had no option but to wait.

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But, you (GCC) didn't, and yet you make it seem as if you were only just back in there.

Carter said:

Personally, i'm not sure what the deal is with the other areas sorry.

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Bullshit, Nick, you know *exactly* what the score is with anything to do with the Milwr and access. You (GCC) locked a previously open adit, with people inside of it. You knew there were people in there, as you (GCC) left a note on a car. Does that not strike you as a Really Fucking Stupid thing to do? You cited the Milwr agreement, but this was not part of it.

The agreement was drawn up by the GCC, not Grosvenor or UU.

*This* kind of fuckwittery is why "politics" happen in North Wales.

[gmod]Lets try and stick to the facts about the present (and future) situation at Milwr Tunnel and Olwyn Goch here if we can please.

Thanks.
[/gmod]

Carter said:

We've been locked out for 5 years and when asked, we always hoped it would be opened again soon. It's been a frustrating and long wait until we gained access again but unfortunately, our hands were tied as it wasn't our decision to make. We had no option but to wait.
Personally, i'm not sure what the deal is with the other areas sorry.

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Publish the access agreement then

Otherwise this just amounts to more bull.
We all know GCC has been into Milwr while it was supposedly off limits
We've all heard the promises of impending restoration of access

Publish the access agreement or most of us will just assume that its a fairy tale. We have no evidence other than a vague assertion from GCC that they have an access control agreement in place again.

This is an underground site I have visited, and was made very welcome. We could visit whatever bits we chose, and had a memorable day. If this situation is restored by a new access arrangement, then we can all be very pleased. Any further thoughts I have about this excellent place I will post on AditNow out of preference, as the forum there has an attitude in debate that I prefer - personal confrontation being much less tolerated than here.

Still waiting for Carter to post a reply to my questions.

Maybe he would like to refute the allegations made by Newstuff and Jagman at the same time?

Nick & all,

Thanks for the communication. Its very much appreciated and a public presence from GCC (informal or formal) must be welcomed.

I'm sure that almost all of the problems/frustrations etc on all sides of the many fences can be addressed providing a form of communication can be established to help clear the air and perhaps once a level of understanding and trust can be established perhaps a happy state of play can be achieved.

I would appeal for people to retain and not jeopardize this conduit for communication. Nick, please don't be put off.

I would suggest that chopped locks, 'vandalism' etc is not something any of us in this small community of like minded people wants. I would also suggest that an increased level of understanding is the only way it is likely to stop - and communication (which in fairness to people has perhaps previously been a little lacking) is of course of primary importance.

Perhaps lets start thinking about stopping the 'wars' and working together.

Nick, I'd encourage you to ignore the negativities (they will no doubt subside over time anyway as understanding improves) and retain your focus on communicating as you have so kindly done. 

All, Something that is key to the entire GCC/Milwr debate is to remain mindful that GCC are a member club of the BCA. As such there are two very relevant conditions that they agree to by way of there application and approval of membership.

Firstly as stated here: http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=121 - condition 1 states that "The club has a major aim or objective that is in support of the sport of caving, mine exploration, cave science, cave & mine conservation or caver training."

Secondly that all member clubs sign and submit annually the following form http://british-caving.org.uk/membership/06C1790_Club+insurance_v10.pdf which states:

"ACCESS CONTROLLING BODIES
If your club controls access to a cave or other site, you must declare its status as an Access Controlling Body and pay the appropriate additional premium for PL cover. There is a space for this on page 3 of this form.
Please note that in declaring your group as an Access Controlling Body, you are agreeing to permit access to any member of BCA to those caves and / or mines that you control (subject to any cave/mine specific conditions and access procedures). This is a condition of BCA membership"

I would suggest that we all retain faith that GCC and all BCA members/Clubs hold true to this sentiments of these rules/conditions of membership because without this belief things will undoubtedly downwards spiral into a state of complete anarchy! 

Its probably worth a final paragraph to clarify my position. As many of you may be aware I am vice chairman of UCET, which is a club local to GCC and the Milwr. My comments on here are of course my own as an individual but I would go on to say that the sentiments of UCET is for co-operation with GCC and all other BCA clubs for a harmonised system of access for this and all other cave and mine systems  (as already made clear by the BCA access ethos) and we are fully in support of GCC in their endeavours and we openly extend our offer of help and assistance to them.

Regards,

Tim Watts

ditto to tim

I too agree with Tim's posting, I also suspect that other posters on this thread may have exposed themselves to accusations of "lock changing" and "pirating", thereby jeopordising ongoing access negotiations.
I am very conscious that the original post was offered voluntarily by one of the people involved in these negotiations and as such should not be exposed to the ill informed emotional rants of others. This is a public forum and anyone could be watching!.

Ditto to Cavemanmike

Yes, I agree with the sentiments expressed by Tim as well.

Still waiting for Carter (Nick) to respond to my initial questions.

Carter said:

We've been locked out for 5 years and when asked, we always hoped it would be opened again soon.

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This isnt quite right, you (GCC members) either with or without the clubs knowledge have been entering the system for at least the last 2 years that I know of, I have personally bumped into and spoken to GCC members in the system. So yes i have been in there, but i would like to be clear and say I have never entered the system through Coed Hendre OR O/G.

Personally I dont really care, but some clarification of the current in place access agreement would be great, in short what is the situation if the tunnel is accessed via one of the other many entrances that GCC doesnt have locked down, obviously said person will be in the system without your (GCC) permission or knowledge, how does this impact on the agreement you have. 

Carter said:

It's been a frustrating and long wait until we gained access again but unfortunately, our hands were tied as it wasn't our decision to make. We had no option but to wait.

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I appreciate it has been frustrating, but it is also very frustrating for everyone else, It is common knowledge that half the northern hemisphere goes into the milwr every week, but access as you well know is a nightmare and quite dangerous, Knowing there is a safe simple way in, (Coed Hendre) which you (GCC) has kept locked and not shared for the last 2 years makes many people doubt what they are been told, i suspect this is the reason why people have taken lids off, unless the lids were removed to get people out who have strangely found their selves locked in some how..

Hears hoping you come up with a decent system for access like what they have at Cwmorthin, cant see it happening though.

NewStuff said:

. You (GCC) locked a previously open adit, with people inside of it. You knew there were people in there, as you (GCC) left a note on a car.

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If this is true I would speculate that GCC does not demonstrate a suitable level of responsibilty towards the safety of others?

It'd seem the point of the original post has been lost. It was my intention to simply give an update on what's been going on. Been busy working until now. Only just had chance to reply.
So, where to begin
We didn't have much say in the negotiations. But we managed to get our old arrangements back .
If my responses seem evasive , it's not intentional. I'm not familiar with what went on. I didn't take part in the dealings so can't comment, I dont know the facts.
At no time in my post did l say, or suggest we're ' only just back in there ' As I said, weve been busy in there.
Locked in the level ? There wasnt a lock , a gate or even a lid.
I'm told I'm talking bull and know all about access and the Milwr.  Take it from me, I dont know the ins and outs of it, just what I need to do to comply with the clubs side of it. The only parts of the mine that are off limits to us are from pen-y-bryn to the portal, including herward and caeau shafts, as was before but with the addition of Olwyn goch shaft now. That's all I can say as I dont know any more.
I hadnt been in the tunnel for 5 yrs. I have only been back in recently. We've been busy working on a route in to avoid the condemned ladder way . The lads have put a tremendous amount of time and effort in to this , it's been no easy task.  Plenty of people have been down in the tunnel in the last few years through other points , I haven't , so dont know who's been where and when. Why should l ?
All I set out to do was to let anyone that might be interested know what we've been up to . Not a club statement  or damage limitation excercise ,whatever that means , just a personal thing. Thanks for all the encouraging replies and sorry if I haven't answered your questions properly. I'm not up to date.
No bull, just the facts I know. I haven't got the documents , I stood down as the secretary when we were originally asked not to enter the system. I'm not a letter writer or meetings person so somebody else took the job on.

Not a lot else I can say.