best first sump?

ArranLaird

New member
Hello all,

I have been caving for about a year now and have been having a great time doing so. Me and a few friends fancy doing a 'simple' sump maybe :p just wondering what is out there?

Thanks!
 

Alex

Well-known member
I think people will be able to help you better if you specify if you mean free diving or not.
 

Alex

Well-known member
The first sump up stream in Kingsdale master cave may be a good choice, it can have a little bit of air space in dry weather and is about 2m long.


The next sump is 4m if you are feeling hard, and finally there is an 8m one which brings you out into Rowton pot. Still not been brave enough (or foolhardy) to try them myself.

My first and only one I have done in the Dales is a short one at the end of WhiteScar, it did not have a dive-line on it from what I recall though so not recommending this one so much. Going in I used my mates hand that I could just reach to go through. Going back I did not, I thought I would be 'hard' ended up with me going the wrong way extending the dive to over 4m by scrambling my way under a wall on the right-hand side of the sump, as the exit was into a narrowish passage.
 

Simon Beck

Member
No offence mean't, but if you've been about for a year, you should really have a vague idea of what's out there already. But aside from that, Alex has pretty much summed up the suggestion (Rowten) I would have given myself.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Yes, the first upstream sump upstream in Rowten Passage (KMC) is high on the list. I should just mention that these sumps are in an active flow and sometimes get rolls of fence wire and other debris flushed in. Don't assume the underwater route is necessarily safe. It's probably best to get a kitted cave diver - or at least an experienced free diver - to check these Rowten sumps for you first. Additionally, the upstream end of the 3rd sump from KMC is sometimes a bit low as the sediment level varies. Test thick lines intended for free diving (but please, not thin ones laid by kitted cave divers!) by giving a strong tug before setting off along them, to make sure they've not become fragile after being chafed in flood.

You don't get a second chance if things go wrong so dress appropriately (think warmth but also factor in buoyancy issues), use extra items if possible (mask, extra waterproof lights, neoprene gloves etc) and TAKE GREAT CARE. Being comfortable underwater is key to confidence and safety. Don't fight the sump - dive it intelligently and in a relaxed manner.

Finally - make sure you are diving the right sump - it's not too long since someone set off free diving into the nearly first Mud River Sump by mistake. That ended up in a CRO callout because (fortunately) he made it through this much longer sump but (wisely) elected not to try to free dive back.
 
Hi

Lake sump is a good one as well in Peak. You can bypass it if you hate it when you get through and its got a good line in it.

Hope this doesnt come across as condescending but I wrote the below for our club newsletter. It's based on my very limited experience of freediving in caves (Rowten, Lake sump, swildons). Some more experienced cavers may take issue with some of it but it works for me.......

Freediving for wallies?. (PS NOT AIMED AT THE OP - JUST THE TITLE OF WHAT I WROTE!)
A few people have made comment to me about doing some freedives in order to do some more interesting trips.  I am by no means an expert (in fact I am the above mentioned wally), however I am pretty happy in the water coming from a diving back ground, but thought I would jot down a few thoughts about it in case anyone is interested.  I am sure most of you are more than aware of the following, but in case anyone isn?t:
? It?s a really good idea to speak to someone who has done a freediveable sump before and not just jump on in.

? Neoprene ? You don?t want to be swimming around in a fleece suit for any period of time, especially if there?s a lot of caving to be done beyond. Lake sump in Peak is OK, as it?s very short, but as most can attest ? it?s very cold.  Wear a wetsuit, the thickness won?t matter much, and you won?t get as cold. Cold makes you gasp and breathe shallow which is not what you need when freediving!

? Temperature ? Diving straight in to cold water will be a shock. Don?t do it. Roll around in the sump pool first so your body gets used to the temperature ? it won?t be fun, but it will make the dive more relaxing. Those who saw me rolling around in Swildon?s sump 1 pool like a beached whale will recognise this technique.

? Wear a hood ? The difference a neoprene hood makes is amazing. When diving the other day, I had pulled my hood down on the way out of a cave when I decided to have a little dip in a section of canal. I almost bounced off the water when my head touched it, it was so much colder.  It also keeps water out of your ears and almost isolates your face from the water which can be a source of stress for some. Also works well in ducks I find.

? Mask ? Being able to see where you are going, see airspaces etc is very useful. Sometimes you can?t see much but I do find it less stressful when I can see. Also, a proper mask seals your snozz, so you can?t get water up it; which is a bonus.

? Weight ? Whatever you are wearing you are going to be buoyant / floaty especially as you are holding your breath.  This can cause issues as you are fighting to keep yourself off the roof of sumps; this is annoying and slow and finding yourself clattering off the cave can be a bit stressful.  Normal diving weights can ne threaded onto a caving belt easily; a couple of Kg should do.  Or put some rocks in your pockets ? seriously.  Also try and get all the air out of your suit before you swim.

? The rope ? Most (all?) freediveable sumps will have a line through them. They are usually straightforward so the line is only tied at the start and end of the sump. NEVER let go of the line and NEVER clip yourself to it in any way. Just go hand over hand, head down so you don?t clatter your lid.  Personally I like to do them face down, but often you will find yourself rolling onto your back. Wearing a mask this isn?t an issue as it keeps water out of the nose, but I would suggest you tuck your chin down. This keeps your mask away from the ceiling as they can be banged and fill with water (easily fixable but not when holding your breath!).

? Slowly slowly catchy monkey ? Rushing freedives is not going to end well, you can bang your head, wedge yourself, miss airbells etc, Get comfortable wearing a mask, be warm and slow down and relax. It will be easier.

? Bad air ? One cautionary note about ?bad air?. Some airbells between free dives are small (like an upside down bath) and therefore can get a build-up of Carbon Dioxide in them.  Never hang around in small airbells; get in, orientate yourself, clear your mask, and move on. It?s an incredibly low risk but worth being aware of.

? Hyperventilating ? A bit contentious this one.  Your urge to breathe comes not from a lack of Oxygen but from a build-up of Carbon Dioxide.  If you breathe deeply a couple / 3 times, fully inhaling and flushing out your lungs, you can remove any residual Carbon Dioxide, this means when you take a final breath and dive in, you won?t get that burning urge to breathe as soon, meaning you can hold your breath longer.  There are a couple of issues with this, BUT if you only do it a couple of times you will be fine.

(I will expand on the last point here - you can black out if you do the above and hold your breath for a long time but over the average sump length you should be OK. I am not here to advise anyone the above are just my thoughts caveat caveat caveat blah blah blah waffle waffle.



Matt
 

ah147

New member
Cracking advice I think Matt.

My girlfriends first free dive was the 8m sump in Rowten.

She had a mask. A wetsuit. A wetsuit hood.

Id checked the sump a few days before with diving gear on. I also checked the line for her on the day.

She did fine! (As Matt above can attest to)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Brains

Well-known member
Disapointment Pot has a micro sump near the entrance (hence the name...) and is literally a dip under a roof flake. The cave is a good trip in its own right, but if the wet bit upsets you maybe sumps arent for you
 

ArranLaird

New member
Simon Beck said:
No offence mean't, but if you've been about for a year, you should really have a vague idea of what's out there already. But aside from that, Alex has pretty much summed up the suggestion (Rowten) I would have given myself.

none taken, it is just sometime hard to find the information and just looking for recommendations, thanks :)
 

Simon Beck

Member
No, my remark was probably un-necessary.. I'm less averse and more willing to respond(positively) to those who appear to be making some effort to do their own research etc...

Another reccomendation would be the Old Ing Cave, Baker Series Sumps, by far the most fun freediveable sump in the Dales.
 

irnbru

Member
Old Ing sumps were excellent, there's so much in such a relatively short distance - just generally nice cave, airbells - great fun from start to finish...although - I did it with some 3s as we were doing Old Ing to Birkwith trip and the last sump is about 6m deep and 15m long. I personally wouldn't do them without some tins and as Pitlamp says, even in the shorter ones, having a diver going first is a nice thing to have...saves any surprises. (I'm thinking of the dead sheep and decapitated turkey feet I found in Wales.)

Some fantastic streamway which you can access from the Birkwith side and swim about in, get used to the underwater experience and nice scalloping under the water with plenty of air above your head.
 

Simon Beck

Member
The one in Sleets gill cave (1st upstream sump) makes for the most asthetically pleasing freedive of them all, due to the fantatsic visibility - truly an eyeful if you open them - and go first.
On the issue of Dowbergill - there are quite a few ducks and freedives that appear in wet conditions, but normally there are a good few on the dow side.
I wouldn't reccomend Langstroth as a first dive from either direction - not that there's anything remotely difficult about them, saying that they were mine, but probably best to be comfortable with the idea and environment first.
Don't do what I did the first few time (on the return) I did the rowten main sump and get stuck due to weights mounted on my back - took me more than five seconds to wriggle free - although at the time I was crazy eyed enough to have happily drowned...
 

Over the Hill

New member
Simon Beck said:
The one in Sleets gill cave (1st upstream sump) makes for the most asthetically pleasing freedive of them all, due to the fantatsic visibility - truly an eyeful if you open them - and go first.
On the issue of Dowbergill - there are quite a few ducks and freedives that appear in wet conditions, but normally there are a good few on the dow side.
I wouldn't reccomend Langstroth as a first dive from either direction - not that there's anything remotely difficult about them, saying that they were mine, but probably best to be comfortable with the idea and environment first.
Don't do what I did the first few time (on the return) I did the rowten main sump and get stuck due to weights mounted on my back - took me more than five seconds to wriggle free - although at the time I was crazy eyed enough to have happily drowned...

Yes Sleets Gill is a cracker, take a mask even better. But for the uninitiated REMEMBER the whole thing can flood long after rain has ceased in the valley due to the hydrology. Best done after a couple of weeks of dry to be safe in my opinion.  :coffee:
 
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