ILoveCaves
Member
Anyone else having any issue with the AV titan? Feel like the quality of them has decreased over the years? 
AV?s Oversuits Quality Control
- Thread starter ILoveCaves
- Start date
badger
Active member
I am not a heavy user in that I don't cave every month, so very difficult to say about new AV's. but my current AV is more than 5 years old, and I do patch or re stich as soon as required, which helps the suit last a bit longer.
If you brought it from starless river it may be worth having a conversation.
Warm bacs for me are not king, yes very hard wearing, but they are just way to stiff for me hence I have not had one since the very early 2000's
If you brought it from starless river it may be worth having a conversation.
Warm bacs for me are not king, yes very hard wearing, but they are just way to stiff for me hence I have not had one since the very early 2000's
ILoveCaves
Member
Thanks all! Yeah so far I?ve heard that just newer ones (as in the past 3 years) haven?t been up to scratch? Looking at getting a new one and not sure I will stay with the AV Titan, though as said I?m sure it depends on what you do cave wise 
Shapatti
New member
If you do a lot of very gritty or very gravelly type caving where you spend a lot of time in contact with walls and the like, then the Warmbac oversuits are harder wearing and seem to last reasonably well in these environments. Though you do sacrifice the increased mobility and lighter weight that the AV oversuits provide.gingernutcrazy said:Thanks all! Yeah so far I?ve heard that just newer ones (as in the past 3 years) haven?t been up to scratch? Looking at getting a new one and not sure I will stay with the AV Titan, though as said I?m sure it depends on what you do cave wise
(I personally at the moment are using an old Phoenix oversuit which I believe to be based on the Dragon patterns... Mainly because my AV oversuit needs a lot of work to stop the seams failing and I'm lazy... I think that AV oversuit was bought late 2019 / early 2020 and has done a fair few trips in it's life, but I do remember the older suits lasting longer in the same areas...)
I think as has been suggested in this thread, the issues raised are more to do with the material used instead of the design of the suit, though they've always had slight issues with the hems and seams fraying, especially on the sides at the waist.
One of the best suggestions I have heard was given to me by Tony Seddon at Starless River, his suggestion was to cover all of the seams and hems of a new oversuit with Aquasure (Other adhesives are available)
It doesn't look that pretty but it does seem to extend the life of oversuits with the issue of the seams failing.
pwhole
Well-known member
I did give mine the Aquasure treatment on the seams (inside), and it did seem to help - I've only got minor fraying around the waist elastic point. However, I was looking for a shaft in a thorny area a few months ago, and when I got back to get changed, I had about ten neat slits across one butt cheek that I didn't even notice happening. Obviously this was potential disaster, but luckily I had some spare black fabric (from Tony) so I had to glue a patch over the whole section - so far it's held up, but I was amazed how easily it got shredded. Though it's probably a lot weaker after about three hundred trips, so I guess it's not worth whingeing really. I did buy one of the Meander cordura suits when they were out, and that was thicker, but the cut wasn't as good as the AVs, so I don't tend to use it as much.
ian.p
Active member
Having spent some time sourcing coated nylon fabrics over the last few years what I would say is its harder than you think to get a consistent supply of good quality fabric. Pretty much all woven nylons are now manufactured in the far east and imported by fabric dealers who then sell the fabric on to manufacturing companies. The trouble with this is that for say a 6oz PU coated nylon you might buy one batch from the dealer and its really good quality you then reorder from the same supplier but they have switched supplier and the next batch of what you think is going to be identical fabric is much poorer quality that delaminates rapidly.
I know of one company in the UK that applies its own coatings to imported base fabrics which I have used to source fabrics from but even with them because caving is a small market I can only order what is being produced for other markets. So in the example of the 6oz PU coated nylon I have been told by that supplier that if I want to order more of that fabric it will have to be with a lighter weight PU coating because they no longer produce the heavy weight version. I cant imagine there is much difference to this situation in other European countries.
So in short trying to maintain a consistent supply of quality fabric is a real headache and what's more because issues like delamination only become apparent with use the company wont know there's a problem until its too late, the suits are in use and their reputation is going to take a hit.
I know of one company in the UK that applies its own coatings to imported base fabrics which I have used to source fabrics from but even with them because caving is a small market I can only order what is being produced for other markets. So in the example of the 6oz PU coated nylon I have been told by that supplier that if I want to order more of that fabric it will have to be with a lighter weight PU coating because they no longer produce the heavy weight version. I cant imagine there is much difference to this situation in other European countries.
So in short trying to maintain a consistent supply of quality fabric is a real headache and what's more because issues like delamination only become apparent with use the company wont know there's a problem until its too late, the suits are in use and their reputation is going to take a hit.
blackshiver
Member
Perhaps this equipment review might prove useful.
http://nymcc.org.uk/nymcc-equipment-reviews-oversuits/
http://nymcc.org.uk/nymcc-equipment-reviews-oversuits/
Maybe we need to persuade Warmbac to add a design to their range based in the cut of AV and perhaps using the lighter Cordura? No need for double knees or elbows : surely we all use pads?
I'll donate my very clean and good condition, but very disseminated AV for them to cut up for a pattern.......
I'll donate my very clean and good condition, but very disseminated AV for them to cut up for a pattern.......
David Rose
Active member
Aquasure is quite expensive. Doing all the seams and hems would cost about 20, I reckon. Unless someone knows a cheap, bulk source?
PeteHall
Moderator
topcat said:
Intellectual property aside, there's a lot going for the Warmbac design; it's the only oversuit I can think of without a seam on the outside of the leg. This seam (on other designs) is generally one of the first major failure points, which the Warmbac is totally immune to. The main issue with Warmbac is the shrinking fabric!
I bought my first AV suit nearly a year ago and opted for the Midroi, described by Starless River as "a shade more abrasion resistant" compared to the Titan, so not sure if the problem described above is comparable. For what it's worth, I've found the AV Midroi to be very much more comfortable than a Warmbac. Since I wear a Warmbac for digging, or a wetsuit for wet caving, the AV hasn't seen a great deal of use. I've probably only worn it about 10 times, but almost invariably for long trips, so it's probably clocked up 60 hours of use. In that time, there is little sign of wear or damage, aside from the AV label coming off the pocket, so no complaints from me, yet!
