Last Friday I received the following message from the Secretary of the PDCMG:

In my capacity of Secretary of the PDCMG, reports have been reaching me that you have been involved in opening up a further entrance to Ogof Draenen through an entrance on the Blorenge and that this enters the cave somewhere in the south east of the system. Please accept my apologies if this rumour is unfounded, however, I need to ask you to confirm whether this information is correct and provide any further details if you have them.

To avoid any more confusion or misrepresentation concerning what has already been said on this forum I have decided to make the following public statement:


Ogof Draenen - New Entrance

Members of Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros, assisted by cavers from several other clubs, have found a new route into Ogof Draenen.

A long-standing dig was brought to a successful conclusion on 22/02/09 with the discovery of a short section of new passage.

Further passages were discovered on 26/02/09 with possibilities extending in several different directions.

A vocal connection was made from one of these to a passage in Ogof Draenen on 08/08/09.

A passable connection between the two caves was established on 15/08/09.

Initially desperately tight, this was enlarged on 18/08/09.

The first through trip took place on 20/08/09.

Work continues on several promising leads and it is hoped that this will result in further significant discoveries.

Please await with patience further announcements regarding long-term access arrangements.

Nig Rogers
Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros
28/10/09

I'm sure this was, as always, the result of a lot of hard work, over a long time, from a committed band of diggers.  :bow:

How much passage have you found?

Congratulatons diggers.
Fantastic.   

I think this is very sad.

I notice that Nig does not say where his dig connects into the system, but my guess is that it's well into the system.  Thus this turns one of the most remote places in Britain into somewhere easily accessible -- a bit like building a road up Ben Nevis.  It will also likely lead to damage to many of the fine formations.  It will have a severe detrimental effect upon the nature of the cave.

Gavin

Congratulations on your succesful dig and its subsequent linking to the already known stuff - I eagerly await news of the other leads you have waiting...

caving_fox said:

How much passage have you found?

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Hopefully, not as much as we are going to find soon!

gavinlowe said:

It will also likely lead to damage to many of the fine formations. 

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Not if these formations have been taped as well as they should have been. If they haven't been then I would suggest that now might be a good time to do so.

To caving_fox, whitelackington and Brains, I'd like to say thanks for the kind words of encouragement. Much appreciated, you can be sure.

To Gavin, I'd like to say sorry for any sadness we may have caused. Despite what you may think, this has not been done to deliberately upset anybody. We are well aware of the conservation implications and I am confident that your fears will ultimately prove to be unfounded.

I'll probably make another short statement in a day or two but don't really want to say too much more at the moment, particularly with this meeting of the PDCMG coming up on Sunday. If anyone has any reasonable questions I'll try to answer them as best I can. However, don't be too disappointed if I'm a little circumspect for the time being.

gavinlowe said:

I think this is very sad.

I notice that Nig does not say where his dig connects into the system, but my guess is that it's well into the system.  Thus this turns one of the most remote places in Britain into somewhere easily accessible -- a bit like building a road up Ben Nevis.  It will also likely lead to damage to many of the fine formations.  It will have a severe detrimental effect upon the nature of the cave.

Gavin

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What about sinking a man made shaft right into the top of Titan. The very top of Titan was once too an extremely remote place, accessible to only a few of the fittest. Now, just a hydraulic which ride away.
Nobody seemed to kick up much fuss about that at the time. Infact its hailed as one of the best trips in the land, deserving of the attention of the worlds media..I don't think the TV crew would have been arsed to prussik up the bloody thing with their kit, had they not been able to drive their big (and hopeless) 4x4 to the top.

Seems to me that Nig is just doing what cavers do.....pushing cave. If that happens to connect into the back end of another system, then so be it. I assume here that no real 'mining' has gone on, i.e. choked natural passage had been followed and dug through.

What if Nig had gone to the far end of Draenen, and dug outwards to connect to the cave that led in from surface
would that count..

Seems like you lot need to get over it. Good effort Nig.

Well done Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros and everyone else involved.

gavinlowe said:

I think this is very sad.

I notice that Nig does not say where his dig connects into the system, but my guess is that it's well into the system.  Thus this turns one of the most remote places in Britain into somewhere easily accessible -- a bit like building a road up Ben Nevis.  It will also likely lead to damage to many of the fine formations.  It will have a severe detrimental effect upon the nature of the cave.

Gavin

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That is one view, but one that focuses purely on the negative.  Personally I think it is exciting rather than sad. It means that cavers can enjoy new opportunities for quality caving trips.  It means that the frontiers can be pushed to new areas of remote wilderness.  It is not inevitable that the cave will suffer degeneration and damage because, believe it or not, cavers today are generally responsible and conservation minded.

It also means that the 'should we have multiple entrances to Draenen' debate becomes the 'what do we do about this' question. 

SamT said:

I assume here that no real 'mining' has gone on, i.e. choked natural passage had been followed and dug through.

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Correct. Natural features have been followed throughout and natural processes have merely been hastened (passages enlarged) or reversed (boulders or infill removed). No 'mining' at all. Real purists may find it interesting to note that the connection itself was finally made using only hand tools (hammer and bar).

SamT said:

What if Nig had gone to the far end of Draenen, and dug outwards to connect to the cave that led in from surface....

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Firstly, this would have been even more frowned upon. You are not allowed to look for another entrance from inside the cave. This even extends to the banning of radiolocation equipment. Interestingly, we did use radiolocation as a means of establishing the precise levels of the two caves but the results were purely of academic interest. The actual link was made as a result of shouting from either side!

Secondly, this would not have been found from within. It is so obscure that nobody, ourselves included, would ever have considered digging in the right place. Kind of makes you wonder what might be awaiting just beyond the end of other hopeless looking passages, doesn't it?

Well done diggers. I like others look forward to hearing reports of further finds and updates. I am sure you will tape off all relevant features that need conserving. Dig on!

Congrats Nig,

I'm hoping your leads are heading somewhere towards the potential streamway beyond Luck of the Draw / Riflemans - that would be exciting!

The opening of the contraversial 'other' entrance will now give us as cavers a chance to prove the Doom-mongers wrong. We have an opportunity to behave responsibly, tape formations, treat the cave with respect and show that the opening of a through route or opening access to a previously remote area of cave is not as damaging as some people would think. Time now to learn the lessons from Ffynnon Ddu and Lancaster Hole and tread carefully. There is an opportunity here for some study - take photos now as a baseline and re photograph regularly whilst monitoring caving numbers and see if there is a noticeable impact. I would sincerely hope that no-one would consider deliberately trashing stuff just to prove me wrong.....

Dan.

Well done Nig.  I'll be along shortly for a trip - is it gated?

NigR said:

Firstly, this would have been even more frowned upon. You are not allowed to look for another entrance from inside the cave. This even extends to the banning of radiolocation equipment.

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Bonkers 

Seems to me like Draenen once connected to surface through another entrance, fact of the matter is, it probably connects elsewhere though old cave connections. One day, these will be dug into, just as happens with just about any cave system being explored the world over. Looks like some folk are just going to have to get over the fact.

Oh well, good effort and good luck with all the bollocktics.

SamT said:

NigR said:

This even extends to the banning of radiolocation equipment.

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Bonkers 

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Indeed. However, I can find no reference to such a ban on the PDCMG website.

Rhys

NigR said:

Not if these formations have been taped as well as they should have been. If they haven't been then I would suggest that now might be a good time to do so.

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Brilliant news Guys. Well done.
I'll happily lend a hand taping areas if its needed. 

Not if these formations have been taped as well as they should have been. If they haven't been then I would suggest that now might be a good time to do so.

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i assume that as the pioneers of this new route you and the other diggers will be at the fore front of renewed conservation efforts in the further reaches of the cave as opposed to taking a position of it being somone elses job which is the feeling i get from your post.
well done with the dig

Just to answer a few specific points:

Andy Sparrow said:

It means that the frontiers can be pushed to new areas of remote wilderness. 

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This has always been the prime motivation behind all our digs.

danthecavingman said:

The opening of the contraversial 'other' entrance will now give us as cavers a chance to prove the Doom-mongers wrong. We have an opportunity to behave responsibly, tape formations, treat the cave with respect and show that the opening of a through route or opening access to a previously remote area of cave is not as damaging as some people would think.

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Well said, Dan. Like you, I am  hopeful that the 'controversy' factor will in fact have a positive effect on cavers' attitudes towards conservation in the future.

Duncan Price said:

I'll be along shortly for a trip....

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You are always welcome, Duncan. Just give me a shout. No sumps yet, though!

Duncan Price said:

.....is it gated?

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Don't think I need to answer that one.  : (Although I will have more to say on this later.)

Rhys said:

However, I can find no reference to such a ban on the PDCMG website.

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That is because it has rather cleverly never actually been written down (in a similar way to which the use of the now blocked original second entrance by certain members of the PDCMG, supposedly for PDCMG business, was never actually minuted). However, if you search around in past Minutes you will find a reference to special permission being granted following a request by Gwent Cave Rescue for the use of radiolocation equipment. This implies that it would not normally be allowed, so confirming what I had been told privately. (They are really scared of Stuart France's technological know-how, that's for certain.)

menacer said:

I'll happily lend a hand taping areas if its needed. 

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Thanks, menacer. Will be in touch.

ian.p said:

i assume that as the pioneers of this new route you and the other diggers will be at the fore front of renewed conservation efforts in the further reaches of the cave as opposed to taking a position of it being somone elses job which is the feeling i get from your post.

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We have already earmarked several places for re-taping in the near future and will continue to do so. However, I stand by my earlier comment which was aimed at Gavin and nobody else. If the formations he refers to are as vulnerable as he makes out then they should have been well taped-off long ago. If not, then he can always go down there on Saturday (via his beloved original entrance) and do so.

As you might imagine, I am most pleased by the positive feedback up to now. Keep the comments coming (good or bad) but let's try not to get involved in yet another slanging match. Time to move on.

NigR said:

Rhys said:

However, I can find no reference to such a ban on the PDCMG website.

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That is because it has rather cleverly never actually been written down (in a similar way to which the use of the now blocked original second entrance by certain members of the PDCMG, supposedly for PDCMG business, was never actually minuted). However, if you search around in past Minutes you will find a reference to special permission being granted following a request by Gwent Cave Rescue for the use of radiolocation equipment. This implies that it would not normally be allowed, so confirming what I had been told privately. (They are really scared of Stuart France's technological know-how, that's for certain.)

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I don't really see how you can ban something but not tell people it's banned. But anyway, I've found your reference: (AOB, section 14) http://www.pdcmg.org.uk/min150697.htm . I was as at that meeting in 1997 for some reason.

Rhys

NigR - I'll always disagree with you regarding your approach to landowners, but congratulations on your discovery - it's why we dig, innit?