I will be going to an underground site to take photos of a giant slug on sunday (15ft high concrete feature) and there is a possibility there may be roosting bats. there are bat grills but no evidence of actual bats I can track down.

Will taking photographs using flash/light painting disturb any nearby bats? They dont have good eye sight, thats about all I know.

Had a look on the bat conservation trust website and couldn't find anything.

My experiene of bats are:  You can pick them up, weigh them, poke them sex them and put a ring on them and you will find the bat, usually in the same cave on the next visit in a months time.  Trouble is that was in the 1970s.  Today if you disturb a bat without a licence it is a ?5K fine per bat.

The short answer is, your flash will not disturb tge bat, but do not tell anybody 

bats can be very hard to spot. I'd suggest contacting bigjim on here by PM, he's a knowledgeable bat group person and should be able to help. Mel.

mmilner said:

bats can be very hard to spot. I'd suggest contacting bigjim on here by PM, he's a knowledgeable bat group person and should be able to help. Mel.

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Cheers Mel, ill do that. I like your matching helmet and troglight too!

I suggest if you are interested in not causing harm to the bats, you you obviously must be to start this thread, that you forsake rhychydwr1's advice. The light from flashguns may not directly effect bats but if you are close your body heat and the heat from the flashgun can disturbs them. It's for this reason the advice is generally to leave them alone. However, if you are goinf specifically to photograph something else I think it's quite safe to work away and assume it safe unless your work makes them take to flying

Before the current regulations

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mendipcaveregistryarchive/11996748026/in/set-72157639859728234

Sid said:

Before the current regulations

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mendipcaveregistryarchive/11996748026/in/set-72157639859728234

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GOD! doesn't he look young 

Whereas I understand the need to protect bats, I think there is far too much ?Scaremongering? and ?utter nonsense? that gets peddled around by a minority of bat enthusiasts (I am sure the majority are ok).

At a caving meet up, our group of cavers noted another ?party? of apparent cavers a stones throw away on the same car park (most had oldham lamps). Assuming they were cavers I approached (with a colleague) and a bloke stepped out of the other party (who I assumed to be their rep/boss/captain/whatever ? and he was) and I asked if he and his party were going underground as we were.

He said ?no, we are the bat group? and he waved at some nearby ?arches? (it was dusk) and bats could be seen flying around with various people already shining their lights at the bats (in flight) and some were taking photos.

He then added, ?There are bats down there (pointing underground) ? you are not allowed to disturb them? (which he said with some arrogant authority). I replied ?We have no intention of interfering with the bats, that?s not what we do?. His reply was ?Well, your lights will disturb them, you should consider re-arranging your trip?.

I became ?annoyed? (to say the least) especially since he had been unnecessarily arrogant and I pointed to his colleagues who were busy shining their lights and taking photos of the bats in flight and I said ?What, like your people are doing now??

He almost exploded at me and (with spittle coming forth from his mouth) he said ?We?ve got a licence!?.

My reply was short (and final) as I said ?oh, the bats know that do they??

We then went our separate ways.

I have no doubt most bat enthusiasts are perfectly fine people and reasonable precautions are, well, reasonable. But like (seemingly) everything else, there are extremists who want to micro-manage, dictate and police.

Just be sensible and don?t break any laws ?

Ian

We had a the exact opposite experience to Ian with a bat group we met at Minera Quarry, September 2013. There were a lot of cars and people milling around. while we got changed we heard worried whispers of 'are they with us'...

I went over to a small group and inquired what they doing and they were a N Wales Bat Group (can't remember which one). who were going to do some ringing. We headed off to the Ragman streamway and did a through trip into the Ragman vein and exited near the Hoffman kiln. We met all the bat people who had mist nets up  near the kiln and chatted to them. They were very friendly, even fishing out a bat from a bag which had just been tagged. Some of their members did venture underground and knew the system we visited. We saw a couple of bats in the Ragman vein and asked what species they were likely to be and they were happy to explain the various ones we were likely to encounter. It made what was a good evening trip much more enjoyable...

Dave 

We met (probably) the same people at (probably) the same time - certainly they were "bagging" bats with a net at the Hoffman Kilns and, yes, they were a pleasant bunch and we had a natter with them.  Not the same people I was referring to earlier though.



Ian

If we spend more time thinking about how our activities may or may not affect bats and less time getting tribal over bad experiences with bat groups, then perhaps the bats would be better protected.

Peter Burgess said:

If we spend more time thinking about how our activities may or may not affect bats and less time getting tribal over bad experiences with bat groups, then perhaps the bats would be better protected.

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That is precisely what the OP did/solicited.

He has received various responses and will no doubt come to his own conclusions.

I'm sorry if that is confusing.

Ian

I am not confused Ian. I was simply reflecting on something I have always believed.

Many many many years ago I wrote my dissertation on whether cavers disturb bats, and used North Wales as an area to base my very limited research. I interviewed a number of cavers from different caving clubs as well as accompanied bat workers on counts.

My dissertation wasn't the best, priorities being elsewhere! However I did draw a lot of info from this study: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/energetics-research/publications/pdf_docs/33.pdf

The number of bat counts I attended didn't really lend itself to a sound statistical analyse (although I didn't mention that to my lecturers at the time!!), but the overall opinion of the bat workers I'd accompanied was that caving didn't significantly effect bat roosts with bats just buggering off and finding somewhere a little quieter if disturbed, often in bits of the cave inaccessible to us. 

What was interesting was the limited awareness of cavers regarding how we could disturb bats, in particular warming them up if they're hibernating. The main offender in this respect is physically handling them (the study linked above highlighted that) and there were a few guys I remember chatting to quiet openly saying they'd picked up and checkout out hibernating bats!!

Taking photos of bats doesn't seem to disturb them significantly, however you do need a bat licence to do so (at least that's my understanding). What will disturb them is standing underneath them for any length of time as this warms them up. It's also worth bearing in mind that only a few bats hang conveniently form the roof of caves or mines, with the majority nestling into cracks or stacked deads etc.

Ian, it sounds like your decision on whether or not cavers disturb bats is based upon the rudeness of one bat person. The fact that he was rude does not prove your assumption that cavers cause minimal harm. He could be both an asshole and correct!

Besides, a bat sleeping in a cave is likely hibernating. If you disturb them with camera, flashes, body heat, excessive noise etc and that wakes them then you know you have likely caused harm as once awake they will start consuming energy that is supposed to be reserved for hibernation. That individual will then be at a disadvantage in competition with the other bats. If you disturb it enough that it takes to flight then you are most certainly doing harm. The fact is that the licensed guys were unlike to be causing harm as they were taking photos etc at a time when bats were feeding and active and therefore not trying to conserve energy.

I haven't said that cavers do "minimal harm" (I mentioned nothing about any harm they might or might not do). I suggested "reasonable precautions", being sensible and not breaking any laws.

Gethin's post was enlightening and certainly aids in understanding the effect and impact a caver may have on a bat.

There have been two "stories" told, one of a light nature and one less so. Of the lighter meeting (DaveT) I believe I met the same group around the same time (also at Minera) and my thoughts were the same as Dave's. That balances my apparent negative view doesn't it ?

The OP was asking for advice and unless a person is an expert (and some are) the best the rest of us can do is offer experience and opinion ....



Ian

It's not necessarily true that you need to be an expert to have any sort of opinion. I'm not a bat expert but I did study ecology and I continue to read papers on these issues and have done work specifically related to the disturbance of wildlife by human activities. I have done bat surveys and looked after injured bats so I feel I have some idea of the animals without having a PhD in it.

My point was just about you dissing the expert's opinion, i.e. he told you you were likely to disturb the bats and you ignored his advice just because he was rude! Also, interfering with bats without a license IS breaking laws!

Mind you, I do think people can cave in many systems without disturbing bats, depending on what type of bats are present and what time of year, but that's on the assumption that cavers walk by them and ignore them. If everyone with a camera on every trip stops to take photos then I think it's reasonable to assume you will cause harm.

It is dangerous to think that just because one has a strong opinion, that we know everything. I would not expect a bat group to understand the finer points of cave conservation (formations, deposits etc), and would expect them to listen to cavers for advice. The opposite also applies when considering protection of bats.

& many regularly used cave systems have regularly hibernating bats in them that are there year after year, Horseshoe Bats aren't that easily disturbed unless people prod them, heat them up or take photos.

This year on Mendip there has been hardly any nights around freezing so the bats haven't been hibernating and have been out feeding.

Mike

mikem said:

This year on Mendip there has been hardly any nights around freezing so the bats haven't been hibernating and have been out feeding.

Mike

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What are they feeding on?  There do not seem to be many insects flying around.