CNCC updated advice

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Hi all

Not sure if this has been posted in other threads but the CNCC has updated its advice following the latest changes to government regulations and guidance.  See here

https://cncc.org.uk/covid-19/index.php

Cheers
Tim Allen
Access officer

PS - worth noting that West Yorkshire is also in tier 3
 

Fjell

Well-known member
So if you live in Lancashire or Cumbria you can go to Leck and Casterton fells, but not further east.

If you live in North or West Yorks you cannot go west of Marble Steps.

Outstanding.

It seems we possibly shouldn?t have gone down Meregill today, but people from Leeds and Bradford could. The Mere is completely empty and the 4th pitch is still a slightly dubious proposition, especially in copious melt water. Any chance of replacing the Elliot route? New Year project for someone to keep them finely tuned?

There is a rope on the Mere. It?s a bit green and sad looking, and no doubt thoroughly irradiated by now.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Fjell ? did you go down to the bottom of the Mere? I've been right down to the bottom, and the trickle of water that was there just soaked away into mud-covered boulders; I was just wondering if there was any change (insofar as you can deduce from that description).
 

cavetroll

Member
Leeds and Bradford are West Yorkshire, and thus, we can?t travel to the dales at all! (Except for work etc).
 

Fjell

Well-known member
Fulk said:
Fjell ? did you go down to the bottom of the Mere? I've been right down to the bottom, and the trickle of water that was there just soaked away into mud-covered boulders; I was just wondering if there was any change (insofar as you can deduce from that description).

My wife said it was just muddy boulders, she trekked to the other end. Water was falling down the pinnacle.

And there was a helmet.....
 

kay

Well-known member
cavetroll said:
Leeds and Bradford are West Yorkshire, and thus, we can?t travel to the dales at all! (Except for work etc).

The guidance is that "you should stay local and avoid travelling outside your local area, meaning your village or town, or part of a city". But that's not mandatory. It IS mandatory not to travel out of a Tier 4 area.

So - Leeds and Bradford people can travel into the Dales but are advised not to. People from Kendal must not travel into the Dales.

I would add that Leeds and Bradford figures have been decreasing, and the "rolling rate" of infections is lower in both of them than it is in N Yorkshire (data up to 28 Dec)

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map
 

Stu

Active member
Oceanrower said:
It IS mandatory not to travel out of a Tier 4 area.

It absolutely is not! You have to have a reasonable excuse. Exercise (caving) is a reasonable excuse...

Travelling out of a Tier 4 area
You must stay at home and not leave your Tier 4 area, other than for legally permitted reasons such as:

- travel to work where you cannot work from home
- travel to education and for caring responsibilities
- visit or stay overnight with people in your support bubble, or your childcare bubble for childcare purposes
attend hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
- to provide emergency assistance, and to avoid injury or illness, or to escape a risk of harm (such as domestic abuse)
The full list of exceptions will be published in the Regulations.

I know you get annoyed when people mistake guidance and what is legal (law), and yes moving within Tier 4 for exercise is permitted, but moving in and out of Tier 4 for exercise?
 

Oceanrower

Active member
My offer still stands. If you can show me the legislation that prevents it then I'll bung a hundred quid to cave rescue.

I know you can't because it doesn't exist. What you quote above is, yet again, guidance.

Proved by the second to last sentence. "The full list of exemptions will be published in the regulations." I.e. these aren't the regulations!!!!
 

Stu

Active member
Oceanrower said:
My offer still stands. If you can show me the legislation that prevents it then I'll bung a hundred quid to cave rescue.

I know you can't because it doesn't exist. What you quote above is, yet again, guidance.

Proved by the second to last sentence. "The full list of exemptions will be published in the regulations." I.e. these aren't the regulations!!!!

I've read the regs. They have exemptions that mean you can leave your abode/house. That it doesn't commit to staying within a Tier is an omission, and I don't argue your point.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1611/pdfs/uksi_20201611_en.pdf

It's barrack room lawyer such as yourself who will get us all locked down and not be allowed out at all.

But the thing is there's this virus knocking about. It's transmissible by humans when they move around too much.  All the NGB that I'm a member of or participate in, are saying the same: stay in/out of Tier 4 for very good reasons. Surely you agree with that intent? That movement of people is a bad thing during a pandemic? You've seen wintertree's posts on the other channel I'm sure. Rather than being right, let it drop and be the person doing the right thing.
As an e.g.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200512-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-Updated-Coronavirus-Guidance-0

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/covid19-update-the-situation-in-england-for-christmas-2020-and-beyond

Being "right" never looked so good...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/03/derbyshire-police-pan-stupid-hikers-for-defying-covid-rules-to-get-stuck-in-snow
 

Oceanrower

Active member
What I am doing or not doing us immaterial.

If the (god help us all) government wanted the law to say something then they are in an ideal position to do something about it. They haven't.

Many people have chosen to take advice as the law. For some reason best known to themselves they wish others to also take that advice as law.

It isn't.

I will treat it as advice. Like eating 5 vegetables a day or not drinking more than whatever units of alcohol.

When it becomes law I will treat it as law.

Our civil liberties have been fucked with enough with Statutory Instruments and laws being created without scrutiny of parliament.

You want me to follow the law? Fine. I will. If you make it the actual law and not some fucking made up wishy washy guidance by Gove, Patel or some other incompetent MP in a Newsnight interview.
 

kay

Well-known member
My first reaction was to say "you're right" - despite the use of the words "must not" which is used in Government guidance to indicate where something is forbidden by law (as opposed to "should not" which is merely advice), I couldn't find anything in the Regulations that prohibits travel out of a Tier 4 area.

However, in Section 4 - "Participation in gatherings outdoors"

(2) No person living in the Tier 4 area may participate in a gathering outside that area which?
(a) takes place outdoors in a place which satisfies the conditions in sub-paragraph (4) and consists of more than two people; or
(b) takes place in any other outdoor place and consists of two or more people.


4) A place satisfies the condition in this sub-paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and?
(a) no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b) the place falls within one of the following categories?
(i) outdoor sportsgrounds or sports facilities; (ii) botanicalgardens;
(iii) gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.



 

Oceanrower

Active member
Are we agreed then that, if I so chose, I can go caving on my own out of a tier 4 area. Perfectly legally.
 

Stu

Active member
Oceanrower said:
Are we agreed then that, if I so chose, I can go caving on my own out of a tier 4 area. Perfectly legally.

If you did I'd have a much lower opinion of you. So would my missus who frets every time she goes to work (think large northern city with a major regional hospital). I'm gearing up for the kids going to school tomorrow but who knows. But yeah, you go caving...

P.S. I've essentially been out of work since March 2020. Enjoy your caving.
 

Stu

Active member
kay said:
My first reaction was to say "you're right" - despite the use of the words "must not" which is used in Government guidance to indicate where something is forbidden by law (as opposed to "should not" which is merely advice), I couldn't find anything in the Regulations that prohibits travel out of a Tier 4 area.

However, in Section 4 - "Participation in gatherings outdoors"

(2) No person living in the Tier 4 area may participate in a gathering outside that area which?
(a) takes place outdoors in a place which satisfies the conditions in sub-paragraph (4) and consists of more than two people; or
(b) takes place in any other outdoor place and consists of two or more people.


4) A place satisfies the condition in this sub-paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and?
(a) no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b) the place falls within one of the following categories?
(i) outdoor sportsgrounds or sports facilities; (ii) botanicalgardens;
(iii) gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.

Oceanrower is battling this point on another channel. He is right. Whether by omission or design or just hastily drafted, it doesn't state you can't leave a Tier 4 area for the exceptions. Covid though. There's being right and then there is doing the right thing.
 

kay

Well-known member
There's being right and then there is doing the right thing.

Although voluntary work was one of the exceptions, I haven't travelled to the Dales for voluntary work since the beginning of the second lockdown - it seemed to me that it wasn't in the spirit of things to use that exception to carry out work which wasn't urgent and which could be left until the summer. But I wouldn't criticise people who made a different decision.
 

Stu

Active member
kay said:
There's being right and then there is doing the right thing.

Although voluntary work was one of the exceptions, I haven't travelled to the Dales for voluntary work since the beginning of the second lockdown - it seemed to me that it wasn't in the spirit of things to use that exception to carry out work which wasn't urgent and which could be left until the summer. But I wouldn't criticise people who made a different decision.

People have to do what is conscionable and well, yes some don't.
 

mikem

Well-known member
As aardgoose suggests, "reasonable" has a legal definition in English law, in what a reasonable person would be expected to do (unlike American law, where it has to be expressly forbidden).
 
Top