New cave near Llygad Llwchwr

NigR

New member
Discovered by Mike Barnes in October 2005, this is situated in the first large shakehole on the right after going over the stile. The cave comprises around 65m of dry passage, including a short section of active streamway ending in upstream and downstream sumps. A 6m ladder is needed to reach the stream. The upstream sump has been dived for a distance of 180m from base, reaching a maximum depth of 27m although the current limit is at a depth of only 3m in a large underwater tunnel.

The discoverer seems determined to gate the entrance despite the long-standing tradition of open access to caves on the Black Mountain. By doing this he is deliberately ignoring the wishes of local cavers. Anyone intending visiting the cave is advised to keep a low profile and to be prepared for major hassle. If you see a white camper van parked nearby it would be best to go elsewhere as this belongs to Mike Barnes. Be warned - he is a highly unstable character and he does not want anyone else near the place!

Survey data for the dry part of the cave is available from me if anyone is interested.
 
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davepinch

Guest
I was going to ask if you had his email or phone number... but I guess not..

Cheers

Dave
 

NigR

New member
Hi Dave,

Yes I have a mobile number for Mike Barnes, although he has never bothered replying to me when I have phoned him. Don't really want to risk upsetting him any further (had a major row with him over at the cave today) by posting his number here but if you send me a pm I can pass it on to you.

Just to stress my earlier point regarding access, his intention is to gate the cave in the near future so if you (or anyone else) wants to see what is down there you best make it soon.

Cheers,
Nig
 

SamT

Moderator
This is obviously an emotive subject and some quite strong emotions have already been expressed.

Please dont let this deteriorate.

Im worried that you have already given an impression of Mike that the anyone reading must understand is only *your* impression nigel.

Clearly I have no idea who Mike Barnes is and hence I cannot comment on his actions or character.

You have given no indication of why he wants to gate this cave, and what if any, access arrangements there might be now or in the future.

If you two have a personal beef, keep it personal.

By all means pass on mikes no. to dave via the PM tool (not wise to post up any personal info on a public board be it your own or someone elses).

But please try and refrain from defomatory comments.

8)
 
Sounds like someone is protecting a going lead....... :D

Lets hope the Llwchwr is finally going to give up some of it's secrets!!! It's been a long time coming and I know a few people who have "dug" / dived there in the past. I am completely ignorant of the local politics round Black Mountain but I will say that if someone has a "goer" and they want to protect it then fair enough. We gated P7 while it was "going", in fact it's still gated now but anyone that wanted a trip could come anytime if they asked. Sounds a bit like Klondike and someone has staked a claim to this particular spot. I wonder how many hours have gone into this discovery - I know work has been ongoing for a while now.
 

NigR

New member
In reply to SamT:

Apologies for any offence caused (to anyone) - this was not my intention.

You say you do not know who Mike Barnes is - he is a cave diver from Bristol who was expelled from the CDG for deliberately emptying other divers' bottles and removing lines from sumps in Wookey Hole. (This is not intended as a defamatory comment, just a statement of fact).

Sorry for not making it clear why he wants to gate the cave - he wants to gate the cave to keep out other cavers. Current access arrangements are precisely the same as for Llygad Llwchwr - i.e. the land upon which the entrance is situated is owned by the Brecon Beacon Mineral Water Company and permission to enter the cave will not be given. However, the landowner is perfectly happy for people to go caving at their own risk. Mike has made it clear that anyone wanting to visit the new cave should seek his permission and he told me today that he wanted this to be publicised, hence this post. I have no idea what the precise access arrangements will be once the cave is gated.

Hope this clears up the points you were unsure about.


In reply to danthecavingman:

The Black Mountain has traditionally always been a gate-free area, unlike the rest of South Wales. Local cavers (i.e. those who have made the commitment to live here) have always supported this policy and are determined that this will remain the case in the future.

Hope this helps improve your understanding of the local 'politics'.
 
Hi Nig,

Sounds like a thorny issue this one. I had heard about the incident in Wookey, didn't know who had done it though. It seems that some people just want leads to themselves and this chap seems to be good at upsetting people in his quest for new cave. A shame really, cooperation normally works in caving in my experience.

With a lead as good as this, let's hope that the gating and controlling of access to a cave where there is no formal arrangement doesn't lead to loss of access for all when the landowner gets dragged into an argument he wants no part of. It sounds like the gate is unescessary - like I said someone protecting a lead. Bit sad when it's someone jealous and embittered by the sound of it.

Anyway, I shall say no more as I'm only an outside observer on this one. Lets hope it gets resolved in a decent and sensible fashion and that access is available to all.

The best thing to hope for is that the sump "goes" and then you can get in through the top entrance several kilometres away and much higher up :)
 

Joel Corrigan

New member
Oh no.... I had no intention of getting mixed up in this but have very little choice for the following reasons:
-Nig is a mate of mine;
-Mike is a mate of mine;
-I've been helping Mike with some of the dives in both Llychadd and the new site for the last few months;
-I'm painfully aware of the personal issues between the two people and feel partly responsible for various reasons.

What Nig says is true, but only from one point of view. There is another person's side to all of this but as he spends most of his time digging and diving on his own (and has done over there for the last couple of years) then he's not going to be able to defend himself. In fact I don't think that he'd bother anyway. So please bear in mind that before you all decide that he's the anti-christ none of you are aware of the full facts. Fair enough?

By the way, the end of the sump isn't at -3m it's at -14m. Before any enthusiastic divers start dusting off their fins you should know that we've hit a twat of a boulder choke, the first part of the sump is very tight and nasty (helmet off, feet first etc), the entrance to the dry cave is very unstable, the elbow of the sump is at -27m, and much of the time you're in zero vis. Other than that it's a lovely place....

Seriously, though, you should at least gather from Nig that access is a sensitive issue and some people (not me) have put a huge amount of work into exploration here so would advise caution. Anyway, it's just a bloody hole in the ground so don't know what all the fuss is about!Personally I don't believe that the place will be gated and think the only purpose that a gate would serve here would be to help prop the ceiling up.

Hope that evens the balance a bit.
 

NigR

New member
Hi Dan,

Yes, the new cave is well upstream of the slot. In fact, the water in the chamber containing the downstream sump backs up in flood as far as the top of the ladder pitch - a total vertical distance of around 10m. This could well be caused by the slot itself or a similar constriction. Needless to say, you don't really want to be there in those conditions.

The new bit of stream passage is really two separate chambers joined by a short crawl. Although the water is fast flowing, there is not the same volume as in the river chambers in the old cave. The impression it gives me is of an active airbell. However, the divers certainly appear to be back in the main flow so it is safe to say it is the main way on. The underwater passage has not been surveyed yet but my guess would be that it is still trending roughly north (up dip) as the overall trend of most of the sumps in the system is in this general direction. Once a route is found heading eastwards (along the strike) it should lead to open. dry passage. Next stop Herbert's Quarry - around 6km away and 300m higher up!

If you are interested and would like to see the survey of the new cave then send me a pm with your e-mail address and I will send you the data -you will need a copy of survex in order to view it.

Cheers,
Nig

p.s. You say you know people who have dived in the Llwchwr and I see you are based in Sheffield. Do you know Tim Nixon, by any chance? He did a dive to the slot many years ago and I helped carry his gear in. Haven't heard from him for years and I would be interested to know if he is still on the caving scene.
 
Hi again Nig,

I met Tim Nixon once a good few years ago, haven't seen or heard of him recently.

I know Brian Hague - I believe he was on the infamous dive to the slot with the "modified" scaffold tube - the one with wires coming out of it!
As I recall he said that apart from startling a flock of sheep and causing a drystone wall on the surface to fall over, not much actually happened to the slot itself. I also seem to recall he was underground in one of the chambers and the team feared they were going to drown. Apparently all the water initially disappeared and then came surging up with a vengeance! I may be wrong but wasn't Clive Westlake there as well?

I'll PM you later,

Cheers,

Dan.
 

NigR

New member
Hi Dan,

Yes, I remember hearing about that attempt to modify the slot but I wasn't actually there at the time. As I mentioned earlier, I think you can rest assured that the slot is now purely of historical interest so far as future exploration is concerned.

Regarding the question of future access to the new cave, both for cavers and divers, this is now in the hands of the Cambrian Caving Council's Conservation and Access Officer. She was informed of the situation this afternoon and has promised to begin attempts to resolve the matter at the earliest opportunity. So, for the time being at least, we can only hope that a sensible solution is reached.

Finally, I would like to address a couple of points raised by Joel earlier. Everyone, myself included, has been impressed by the amount of work put into this project - this is not an issue. The fact that the discovery was kept secret for almost two months is not an issue either - no-one I have spoken to has a problem with that. What people have got a problem with is the attitude of the discoverer towards the presence of other cavers and, most importantly, his openly stated solution to this - i.e. the installation of a gate to keep them out. Joel thinks that a gate will not be fitted in the end and I hope he is right. All I can go on is what I was told yesterday by Mike Barnes himself - that he intends to fit a gate and he is quite happy for this to be publicised. Joel says that what I have said is correct, then asks that people do not make judgements until they are in full possession of the facts but does nothing to make these facts known. The picture Joel attempts to paint of a misunderstood individual merely wanting to be left alone in peace to pursue his goal is at total variance to my own experience and that of others. Such a person would not feel the need to go up to the SWCC HQ at Penwyllt and spout off at length about his exploits diving the slot to a bunch of people he has never met before - I was not there myself but I have been informed by someone who was that it was the biggest load of egotistical bs they have ever heard. Joel told me last night that he is probably the only cave diver in Britain who will still associate with Mike Barnes after the events in Wookey but, mate or not, I do not think this justifies trying to project a false image of the guy. I am glad that Joel feels 'partly responsible' for the current situation - at least I can agree with him on this. Certainly, had he not wasted my time yesterday by dragging me along, complete with photographic gear, for a trip which was clearly in jeopardy from the outset this thread would never have begun.

Cheers,
Nig
 

Joel Corrigan

New member
For God's sake: enough, man. Nig, what we discuss over the phone does not need to go in print over the internet, especially when I asked you not to repeat what I said. Regardless of how pissed off you are with Mike that's a pretty cheap shot at me and I'm a bit disappointed. Not the sort of thing I'd expect a so-called friend to come out with. If you read my original post you might realise that I was simply trying to even-out what must appear to other people to be a very one-sided argument, not defend Mike. Had he spouted the same sort of crap on this site then I'd have spoken up for you (assuming you were out of contact and oblivious). Regardless of who is more to blame I find it difficult to sit around and not defend those who are unable to put their side of a case forward. It would have been nice if a few more people out there had done the same for me once or twice in the past...

I had no intention of making the facts known because they're nobody else's business. As for wasting your time, what's that all about? You're a caver with a major interest in the area and I asked you if you wanted to come along. As a sideline I was hoping that when you two actually met you'd discuss things and have babies together: a task that might have been accomplished had you not told the guy that you'd gone and surveyed his discovery for him... Some people take that a bit personally, it seems. Yes, he over-reacted and I was slightly embarrassed by the whole thing but there's nothing that I can do about it.

This entire thing is simply a personality clash and you're taking your vindictiveness out on friend and enemy alike. I'm already sick of this and it only happened yesterday. You're both in the wrong on this one so suggest you grow up and wash your laundry in private. The rest of us manage to do so. I would really like to hear nothing else about this as it's a ridiculous mountain/molehill situation and certainly not worth falling out over. Is it? Still, more exciting than the usual caving chit-chat, I guess...
 

NigR

New member
Joel,

I very much doubt if many people will find this much more exciting than the usual caving chit-chat (even if you do) so I'm not going to rise and take your bait.

To go back to my original posting, the real issue at stake concerns future access arrangements for the cave - both for cavers and divers alike. This may well be a molehill to you but is of paramount importance to those local cavers who have devoted a lot of time and effort over the years to ensure that the Black Mountain has always remained a gate-free area. As outsiders with no real affinity for the traditions behind caving in the region I suppose it should come as no real surprise that you and Mike are not in the least bit concerned about this.

In an attempt to avoid this sort of thing happening again, I propose opening a new thread concerning Black Mountain access. Hopefully, this will enlighten anyone else who is unaware of the efforts of past generations of cavers to secure access to the caves of the area.

If anyone has any feelings about access in general I would suggest that they wait until the new thread is up (probably on Monday) before posting any comments. Obviously, this thread should still be used if anyone has anything to say about this particular cave.

Nig
 

zomjon

Member
Hi Nig, probably a lot more under the surface than we could dig up, but I was just wondering why you surveyed this cave on the quiet without notifying or at least discussing your intentions with the finder. I know a whole host of diggers who would be pretty pissed off with that action. Jon
 
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Dave H

Guest
There are some things that can be said in the pub after a few pints - but they are not the sort of things that should be said on a public forum where they could be viewed for years.

It's fine to have debate, it's fine to give differing views on a subject, general slagging off, however, is not acceptable.

Write in haste, repent at leisure! Please calm down lads and ring each other.
 

NigR

New member
In reply to Jon and Dave;

Yes, I agree with you both - thanks for the advice.

Having had the weekend to calm down here are a few facts which perhaps I should have included earlier.

The cave was discovered early in October. Rumours began to circulate about a major find on the Black Mountain towards the end of the month. It wasn't until the beginning of December that I stumbled across the entrance. I immediately (that very night) attempted to contact Mike Barnes who I knew was digging the shakehole. I continued these attempts to make contact for several days but he steadfastly refused to return my calls. In the meantime I spoke to several other people, including Joel, who confirmed the existence of the cave. I also asked Joel, who I knew was in regular contact with Mike, to ask Mike to get in touch with me - I had no response. I waited several more days then decided (along with a friend) to take a look and see what was down there - didn't have a ladder with us so couldn't get very far. Back at the car, we had a chance conversation with a local farmer (not the landowner) during which he told us of Mike's intention to gate the cave. Up until this point we had not even considered surveying the place. The threat of a gate prompted us to undertake the survey the following day in order to obtain a historical record in case access was completely lost. So, to answer Jon's major (and valid) point, we made the utmost of efforts to contact the finder, both before and after our trip. In fact, we even left a phone number with the farmer (at his suggestion) to be passed on to Mike, again without any success. Our intention was never (and is not now) to gain any credit for the survey or to publish it. I naturally assumed (as the cave had been discovered two months previously) that Mike would have surveyed it himself in any case. We did not survey the cave "for Mike", as Joel put it -we surveyed it for ourselves and for posterity in the (increasingly-likely looking) event of access being denied to all but a select few. I only took the decision to make the survey data freely available after finally receiving confirmation from Mike last Thursday of his intentions to restrict access.

Anyway, I hope this clears up a few possible misconceptions. Feel free to ask for any further clarifications if need be.

Regarding the gating of the cave, please bear in mind that but for our chatting to the farmer there is a very good chance that the first anyone would have heard of this would have been after the gate was installed.

Thanks,
Nig
 

gus horsley

New member
I've only just joined this forum, having been absent from the caving scene for a few years (too many!) and I'm fascinated by news of this new cave near Llygad Llwchwr. I did a lot of work in the area over twenty years ago, abortive digs in Pal-y-Cwrt and various shakeholes between there and Herbert's Quarry, plus a few real discoveries further west. Can anybody give me an update as to what's happened in West Wales? Tall order I know, so I'm not expecting anything immediate.

Cheers

Gus
 
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