Water Icicle Extensions

Roo

Roo

New member
Many cavers will have seen the recent article in Descent of the breakthrough in Water Icicle and will be eager to have a look at the extension.
Could we please remind people that at present access to the extension is for digging and conservation only. The ladder in North West choke has currently been removed for safety reasons and to allow time for permanent conservation taping. A small amount of time spent now will hopefully save the delicate features for many years to come. Full access will be announced as soon as conservation work and a safe means of entry are completed. Obviously this does not affect access to the rest of the known system.
Thanks for your patience
The digging team 
 
Roo

Roo

New member
Yes, only the new bits, from the breakthrough in the large aven at the end of NW passage.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Dan said:
I have a 16 foot of iron Ladder that might be useful to you?

Dan
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Cheer for the offer but we have that in hand. We've been using an old builder's aluminium ladder and not leaving it in place as it isn't really long enough but serves the purpose.

To prevent others from using it until something safer is available, it has been left at the bottom of the pitch with a chain and lock to prevent others from using it. Last Saturday we got there to find that not only had some bast*rds decided to unlock it, they stole the bloody lock!

It is currently an ongoing dig and we have requested for others to show a bit of patience and wait until things are made safe and conservation measures are completed. That doesn't stop those who think they have the right to enter anywhere they feel like despite polite requests to wait. We know several have already been in there.

 
Goydenman

Goydenman

Well-known member
Really annoying people are going in before you have finishedand then to go and nick the lock! It is tales like that stops people reporting finds and keeping things secret. But I hate the secrecy even more so thanks for the reorts and dont let the idiots put you off. Talking of which have you managed to push any leads further?
 
J

Jenny P

Active member
THE NEW EXTENSIONS AT WATER ICICLE CLOSE CAVERN

At the request of Natural England, DCA has agreed that a gate should be placed on the new extensions to Water Icicle Close Cavern, which is part of a Scheduled Site of Scientific Interest (SSSI).  This is to ensure the protection of the very fragile floor deposits, which were carefully taped by the original explorers when they were first found, and to allow cave scientists to examine the new section while it is still, as far as possible, in pristine condition.

Note that the gate has been installed in the crawl in the breakthrough area leading to the new extensions - there is no restriction whatsoever to anyone visiting the main section of the cave which has been known for many years.  Thanks are due to Orpheus members who have constructed and installed the gate, which DCA will fund.

There is no intention to exclude cavers altogether and arrangements for visiting the new extensions will be announced very shortly.  Thanks for your patience.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Secretary
 
DAN

DAN

New member
Well a gate to protect something from being detroyed is a good idea (On the road side or somewhere the general public can get) but is it really a good idea putting a gate there? The last place you lot were digging owl hole has one to. I am against the idea of having a gate in a cave which has no restrictions, stoping people like me getting going for a look. Very selfish!
I would not be suppised if it goes missing!

Dan
 
zippy

zippy

Member
If you actually read the above posting properly, it clearly states that:

Jenny P said:
There is no intention to exclude cavers altogether and arrangements for visiting the new extensions will be announced very shortly.  Thanks for your patience.
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The numpty(s) that smashed the formations in Giants were "Selfish".  Providing the intention is to sort a clear access arrangement for those who wish to visit (which it is) then I would describe this as a sensible measure to protect a delicate piece of cave passage.

Z.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
Dan said:
Well a gate to protect something from being detroyed is a good idea (On the road side or somewhere the general public can get) but is it really a good idea putting a gate there? The last place you lot were digging owl hole has one to. I am against the idea of having a gate in a cave which has no restrictions, stoping people like me getting going for a look. Very selfish!
I would not be suppised if it goes missing!

Dan
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Did you actually read Jenny Potts's posting above?

At the request of Natural England, DCA has agreed that a gate should be placed on the new extensions to Water Icicle Close Cavern, which is part of a Scheduled Site of Scientific Interest (SSSI).  This is to ensure the protection of the very fragile floor deposits, which were carefully taped by the original explorers when they were first found, and to allow cave scientists to examine the new section while it is still, as far as possible, in pristine condition.
Click to expand...

There are other sections of cave gated in the Peak for conservation reasons: I'm sure you are aware if an example if you are an Eldon member. Owl Hole is gated as it is right next to a road and only needs a "Derbyshire Key" (spanner).

We are in an unusual situation where a newly discovered part of a cave in the Peak can be examined by experts/scientists/speleologists and conservation considered at the start rather than in retrospect.

There are certain features of interest to the scientists/experts which to most cavers may appear worthless (I quote you from another posting regardng conservation taping:

"Mud formations?  Mud is for walking on. What a load of Shit. Bitching Pete all you seem to do bitch ^is that not bitching right there^
Get a grip!" 
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This is the main reason for restricting access at present - to preserve valuable floor deposits.

And with your attitude, as shown in the quote above, there's nothing more to be said.

 
DAN

DAN

New member
First of all Owl hole is a place that the public can't get to with out a good set of ladders, i think it is very selfish putting a gate down there, (I am told useing money from DCA) only cavers who know what they are doing go there. Giants will have been vandalised by the public as anyone with a torch can just walk in. Cavers know where to walk in a cave they are now aware that people do not want them walking on mud formation. I do not think that that tape is required to stop people walking on mud formations. I personally do not care about mud formations but not to the extent that i would deliberatly walk on them when someone would like to preserve them. I think Tape in caves look digusting and wish people would not use it. But a gate down there is a totally out of order it should just be free access to those who can go there. It's not just me who thinks this there are loads of cavers who would agree with me.

Dan
 
JAM

JAM

New member
Dan said:
Cavers know where to walk in a cave they are now aware that people do not want them walking on mud formation.
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I disagree strongly with your statement, Dan. See i'm new to caving and before Kieth Slatcher and Paul explained the importance of these formations to me I WOULD have walked all over them; not realising the damage I was doing. I'm sure i'm not the only "not too clued up beginner" making the threat to these deposits real and the need for a gate a must, until all the sciencey stuff has been completed.

Rich
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
Dan said:
Cavers know where to walk in a cave they are now aware that people do not want them walking on mud formation.
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That is bollocks Dan. There are growing numbers of newcomers to caving, many crossing over from Urbex groups, mine groups or starting up with uni clubs , and without wanting to tar all with the same brush, I suspect many haven't got a f**cking clue.

I've seen an experienced caver plodge right though a pool of perfect white cave peals, despite having had them pointed out to them on the way in. . irrevocably ruined for ever.  :cry:

taping, when done subtly and not overly intrusively is just an unfortunate necessity that makes a good attempt at preventing newly discovered and pristine cave from becoming just another mud smeared fudge tunnel with only the remaining stumps of the once abundant stal like so many of the easily accessible caves frequented from the 60's onward around castleton or stoney.

I'm not sure about the necessity of this gate, but the tape definitely has its place.

Is the gate planned to be a permanent fixture, or is it only until the said scientists have taken their photos/samples/data. If so - what's the time scale on that. 
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
Dan said:
Cavers know where to walk in a cave they are now aware that people do not want them walking on mud formation. I do not think that that tape is required to stop people walking on mud formations.
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Most cavers know to not walk over formations. But it only takes one to either not realise what they're walking on or be tired or in a hurry and bang. Its gone. FOREVER.
I've replaced tape around mud formations because the old stuff had been trampled into the mud and damage had happened.

Do you go to the Louvre and complain that the Mona Lisa is behind bullet proof glass? What about the vases that were smashed recently after someone tripped down some stairs and fell in to them? would they not have been better protected by being in a room with some "ugly" barrier to prevent accidental damage?

I fail to see how some thing tape prevents you standing next to it and looking over at the formations.
Do some people seriously believe that the chance of someone walking on something accidental is small enough to be worth the ir-reversible damage.

You may find tape "ugly"
I find formations with a series of size 8 wellie prints "ugly" and criminal
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
Dan said:
First of all Owl hole is a place that the public can't get to with out a good set of ladders, i think it is very selfish putting a gate down there, (I am told useing money from DCA) only cavers who know what they are doing go there.
Click to expand...

Why is that selfish Dan, you own a spanner, some ladders and are a caver who knows what they are doing. You could go for a trip now if you want.


(Though it does beg the question as to why it has a gate on it in the first place  :-\)
 
Rob

Rob

Well-known member
I too would like a bit more information reference the reasoning behind the gate (i.e. the uniqueness of the formations, danger in the choke/digs, etc) and the timescales & details of the work set to be undertaken.

Finding new cave is always going to create the opportunity for ?cave scientists to examine the new sections?, but I?d hate for every new find to be gated accordingly. By gating the cave, you take the responsibility to make sure it gets ungated as soon as possible.

I look forward to also hearing the basis of key allocation. I suppose the assumption is that people who are organised enough to order & collect a key will be responsible enough to not cross the tape. A BIG assumption...
 
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