Diggers and divers in the area sometimes leave a cave rigged for easy access. Whats your thoughts? Reason I am asking is a few friends and I got permission to use some ropes in a system and whilst walking to the cave came across another team who had removed all the rigging and was taking the ropes home because they said it was badly rigged and one rope had no markings and was frayed on the end.

Doesn't this depend on whether they were taking their own ropes out or someone elses? Then I suppose it also depends on how damaged the ropes were - which cave are we talking about here?

Gollum said:

...a few friends and I got permission to use some ropes in a system and whilst walking to the cave came across another team who had removed all the rigging and was taking the ropes home because they said it was badly rigged and one rope had no markings and was frayed on the end.

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I presume the other team who derigged did not own the rope. I would be tempted to refer to this as stealing. It is certainly very rude.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to leave caves rigged for a certain amout of time during a project. Many variables impact on how long is acceptable. Either way the derigging should always be done with the owners permission.

Rob's second paragraph contains much wisdom and I'd agree.

Not sure I'd go as far as agreeing with his first paragraph though; I think more detail would be needed to make that judgement.

Speaking as someone who often finds it necessary to leave equipment in caves for long term exploration projects, it is very frustrating when it gets meddled with sometimes. A better option, if others dislike the rigging or whatever, might be at least to try and contact those concerned to discuss any perceived problem (e.g. via this forum?). Things are usually set up the way they are for good reason, which might not be immediately apparent to the casual self appointed experts? Then again, if there's limited rigging options, it might be a more general nuisance to others when pitched have to be left rigged. Surely the best way to tackle such circumstances is a reasonable discussion?

Generally the maxim of if you don't like it, do it yourself spring to mind - you can normally rig over anything that is insitu - although it will get trickier if it's just on spits.

Removing in-situ ropes seems very problematic - were they really really sure there were no divers relying on comning back up that rope? However there is also duty of care. If you see something dangerous is there not an obligation to alliviate it when you find it? How dangerous is dangerous enough to warrent removal though? Agree with others that the discussion would be best, although not all cavers (or even clubs) are aware of these forums.

caving_fox said:

Agree with others that the discussion would be best, although not all cavers (or even clubs) are aware of these forums.

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Agreed. This forum, the local caving shop, Descent, other cavers - between them all someone somewhere would have an idea of the owner of any in situ gear. No excuse for not enquiring further.

Gear should be left as is, at a push if they thought it was dangerous, for whatever reason, maybe derigging anything below the pitch head and leaving the traverse/main hang rigged and then coiling the rope would have been more preferable to just wandering off with the gear.

I have seen what I would call a badly rigged pitch, but I believe it was rigged in that particular fashion because it's used by a diver (or divers) and thus far easier to descend/ascend with all their gear. So for me it's badly rigged but for someone else it does the job required of it, no harm done. As someone else said, if you don't like it, leave it and rig your own rope.

How about a simple laminated notice to the effect of "Insitu ropes and rigging are part of X club's dig, please do not remove"

Burt said:

How about a simple laminated notice to the effect of "Insitu ropes and rigging are part of X club's dig, please do not remove"

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I don't think that's a useful idea. It doesn't really solve anything because not everyone will do it (it may only be a small project not warranting such efforts) and so you'll end up with the same situation appearing. Also may it further encourage stealling as the thief can simple say, well there was no sign....?

This should really be protected by caving etiquette, not nanny state signs.

If people feel strongly enough about some "potentially" insitu ropes, and they cannot find out whose they are via the above mentioned means, then they could return and put a warning on them saying they are bad for whatever reason, and maybe even an upcoming date of removal (at least 2 months away), indicating clearly who's put the note up so contact can be made.

As an absolute minimum a note should be left in place after derigging to inform the owners of where to collect their gear from. Otherwise, stealling... I've had a small number of ropes taken from caves during active projects through the years, some from obscure locations, and not only does it leave a sour taste, but more importantly cancels your breakthrough trip you've been planning for weeks!

Hi All

I'm one of the two divers who kit was removed. The ropes were not badly rigged, they were just a little unorthodox, due to us needing to carry large amounts of kit down there and wanting to bypass a particular part of cave which is a little awkward with bottles. In fact, another reason it was rigged like it was was to keep it out of the way for other groups wanting to use the cave!

How did this person know we were not down there? We could of easily been diving at the time and stashed our kit somewhere safe out of site, so they wouldn't of known if we were there. I would of hoped the person in question would of known better.

Its not as if we are being secretive about what we are doing and a fair few Peak cavers know we are diving in there - in fact quite a few (Gollum included) have asked us permission to use the ropes, which we of course granted. If this person wanted to find out who's ropes they were all they needed to do is ask around the local peak clubs and they would of easily found out who it was.

Grr!

Ben (TSG)

Tend to agree with Rob that this amounts to theft. These were Ben's ropes, clearly he does not know where they are. No-one has made an attempt to contact him, or so it would seem.

Why did 'they' need to remove them? Why not leave them neatly coiled?

The simple rule is if its not yours don't mess with it! Simples...

(with the possible exception of ropes stuck in anchors in pull through caves (not actually rigged))

How about a simple laminated notice to the effect of "Insitu ropes and rigging are part of X club's dig, please do not remove

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Don't let Lancliff see that! You will be added to the his wall of shame before you know it lol. In this case I would agree a sign is not the answer.

The ropes were replaced by Gollum so all is now good, but its still annoying. Just for the record, ropes not mine, but they belong to the other diver!

B

Ah, I've just sussed out where you are talking about.
I was in there last night and had no problems rigging over the existing stuff(It did cross my mind about the un orthodox rigging...but guessed it was done for a reason).

Most of the rope is left coiled on the 'big ledge' anyway.

The rigging was good enough that we borrowed it on our trip last week...to save rigging our own! So not that "unconventional"...

On a serious note...apart from stuff that is blatently dangerous...IE worn to the core...jammed in a pull through etc you should never remove...and even then...only pull up to pitch head and leave coiled...(and thats in systems where you're confident no-one is below you)...in larger...multi route systems how can you be sure some-one isn't relying on that rigging to get out?

Burt said:

How about a simple laminated notice to the effect of "Insitu ropes and rigging are part of X club's dig, please do not remove"

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I recall a while back seeing MMMMC ropes in Ireby with very small laminated notices attached, no bigger than, say, a krab - lets people know whilst not being overly intrusive.

And my apologies; I used the term 'badly rigged' in my post above when 'unorthodox' or 'unconventional' was more appropriate terminology. I wasn't referring to the same pitch as the Peak one, but no doubt similar circumstances i.e. setup to suit divers lugging gear in and out rather than random tourist cavers.

I like the "simple rule" which Alex proposed above.

And I disagree that you can't generally find out who's involved in most cases, fairly easily. We're a fairly small community. Here's an example:

A while ago "Club 1" was digging at a certain obscure underground site but fairly sporadically. "Club 2" wanted to dig there but realised the dig was occasionally played with by others. So, in order to try and discuss this, Club 2 left a note for the unknown diggers with a 'phone number, asking them to make contact. It wasn't long before the telephone rang, sensible discussions were had, the two clubs decided to join forces and work together on the dig - and a significant breakthrough was made. This is a true story which happened in the Dales; much common sense was in evidence and everyone was entirely happy.

Now imagine how different it could have been if things had been handled differently . . .  It's not too difficult to contact the right people if you really want to.

Alex said:

Don't let Lancliff see that! You will be added to the his wall of shame before you know it lol.

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For the record, Alex:

Firstly, I don't know what a wall of shame is, but I am sure that I don't possess one, and never have done so.

Secondly, all I did originally was to express my concern about putting labels which I thought were unnecessary in caves.  You may disagree with my view on this matter, but that is no reason for continuing to make nasty comments.

Why do you two get so much pleasure from going at each other?!   

Pitlamp said:

Why do you two get so much pleasure from going at each other?!   

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The BRCC forum quite often sees comments on what is referred to as "The Alex and Langcliffe Show" - who needs TV! 

Pitlamp, He seems to have a habit taking things the wrong way, sense of humor failure me thinks. I was making light, I do not know what was my nasty comments were meant to be, I can't see anything nasty?

Firstly, I don't know what a wall of shame is, but I am sure that I don't possess one, and never have done so.

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The wall of shame was a reference  to that thing under Langcliffe's name which is I presume is there to shame me for saying it (although I didnt quite, but thats another story), otherwise why have it? I am sure it used to say something else, about someone else along the same lines in the past.

Secondly, all I did originally was to express my concern about putting labels which I thought were unnecessary in caves.  You may disagree with my view on this matter.

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Wrong because in this case I actually agreed with you a label is not the answer in this case.

So in conclusion take that silly remark from under your name if you do not want me making comments about it, simples.