Question of hydrology

T pot 2

Active member
How many active surface streams feed into the hills above Castleton (grid ref and area surface name required) also how many streams or rivers leave Castleton  (grid ref and area surface name required). The hills above are any of the catchment of Castleton as described in the caves of derbyshire.

Please do not include any other streams feeding or leaving the Bradwell or other catchment areas.

T pot

Ps answers can be by e mail but they would be better in the forum.
 

2xw

Active member
I'm not sure of the question. How many streams feed into the catchment from the exterior?

What are you defining as Castleton? Some of the tributaries coming off the great ridge pop into Peakshole on the bend near the caravan club site.

And what are you defining as stream? Several tributaries near Dunscar farm and coming down from Treak Cliff and Blue John feed into Odin Sitch, which comes into Castleton as one stream (but starta as like 5)

Some of the streams coming into P8 ane Giants above are almost more like ditches or drains.

What is the catchment as described by caves of Derbyshire?
 
From what I gather - at a (very) basic level: most of the streams flowing south off Rushup Edge end up in one of the P- swallets when the water reaches the Limestone/Gritstone boundary - e.g. P8, Giants etc.

This is joined by quite a bit of percolation water and I'm not sure the boundary between Castleton and Bradwell is fully defined (and I've heard of water traces that have shown up positive at both).

The water is seen again close to the Peak Cavern vestibule via one of three main resurgences which all combine with, as mentioned in the post above surface streams off the Great Ridge. This leaves the valley as "Peakshole Water".

There's a bit more about the resurgences on the Peak-Speedwell webpage
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
2xw said:
What is the catchment as described by caves of Derbyshire?

I think Places like Thistle and Conies Dale are contained in the Catchment, as are coalpithole rake shafts.

Tpot are you thinking of small stream sinks in addition to the caves etc that you can find on the DCA list, http://thedca.org.uk/dca-cr/registry/registrysearch.php

The grid references for the known cave sinks should be easy to pull off the Cave Registry.

 

T pot 2

Active member
2xw
The question is any stream, rivulet or other water source that sinks into the limestone of the Castleton area wether it be flow off from the gritstone or via a ditch or other method of descending into the caves that are known or not.

Richard
Let me set the boundary for castleton thus, To the west Sparrowpit, to the east Hope, to the north mam tor and to the south Connies dale and the cop. This is all limestone or other rock contained within.

Alister
Thanks for the link and reference to caves registry. I have this information.


 

alastairgott

Well-known member
T pot 2 said:
The question is any stream, rivulet or other water source that sinks into the limestone of the Castleton area wether it be flow off from the gritstone or via a ditch or other method of descending into the caves that are known or not.

Water rises in a spring on the Rowter farm track directly on the line of new rake. Opposite the box that they keep the Eggs in.
Another Spring rises where we were originally digging in "west JH" not too many meters from the entrance shaft.
It is not known where the water for either of these two springs comes from.

I think there's also a spring rising(emanating) near Pindale farm which follows the path from Pindale through Hope Cement works, it's not a big one, more of a ditch. but ends up in some lakes/ponds on the other side of Hope Cement works. (and doesn't follow the path all the way to the bowling green pub in Bradwell).
 

droid

Active member
I would have thought careful studying of a 1:25000 OS map might provide most of the required info, or am I missing something?
 

pwhole

Well-known member
The JH inlet is very interesting, as it's 50m underground, but appears to be flowing upwards, based on our observations - through an admittedly limited exit hole near a choke, which may be distorting the impression of the flow somewhat. But it flows in anything but drought, and is west of Main Rising, so seems to be part of an 'intermediate' water table, possibly prevented from sinking there by the wayboards lower down. I've been to the other side of the choke, and there was no significant water anywhere beyond drips. I wasn't aware of the rising on the farm track, so maybe it's the same water? It's below, ably indicated by young Mr. Gott.

Is it possible that the water near the cement works path is part of Kronstadt Sough? I was told that it fed the fishing lakes now, but they must have an outlet to Peakshole Water. Nunlowend Sough drains to Bradwell Brook I think though, so outside this query's remit. Water sinks into Mam Tor Swallet and comes out in Odin Sough, but I doubt it's a sinking 'stream' in anything other than very wet weather - JG's dye-trace proved the connection. There's also means to be a 'rising' somewhere on Red Seats Vein off the Pindale Road in very wet weather, according to Chris Heathcote, but I've never seen it - presumably it drains unknown stuff in Michill Bank. That hill holds some secrets...
 

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T pot 2

Active member
Phil thanks for your info it clarifies a few of my thoughts, after this question I was going to follow up with the same requests concerning the bradwell catchment area.

Droid I have all of the information that can be gleaned from the local maps, area publications and historical periodicals. I have asked the questions re water entering the aquafer of the castleton area and the same leaving via castleton in order to gain a further insight into the hydrology.

I believe that water traverses the catchment  in up to five directions to arrive at either of the known resurgences in castleton. I also know that there are 5 / 6 of these.

It is water that is sinking or rising that is not included with what know that I am interested in.

  T pot
 

martinb

Member
You may know this already, but water from both Blue John Mine and Treak Cliff goes via a currently undiscovered underground route to Russet Well, in the process going under Peakshole Water. Apparently JG did a dye test a couple of years ago.

AFAIK all/most of the water flowing into Treak Cliff, and out, is percolation water, I'm not sure about Blue John mine. There is no stream in Treak Cliff Cavern, and I think only a sump in Blue John, although both caves display all the attributes of being huge vadose canyons, there may be relic streams under all the rubble that has filled the passages.

A few years ago, I was walking around outside Odin Mine & Cave, and I saw a veritable torrent of water coming down the hillside right at the back of the open workings. There wasn't a stream at the Odin Cave end of the workings so I assumed it went underground near/at Odin Mine? I'm not sure where the water originated from but it may have been run off as it had been very wet in the preceeding days. Although there is a streamlet close to the base of the collapse at Mam Tor that runs towards the Odin direction.

There is a pipe that discharges water into a cattle trough just to the S of Treak Cliff, next to farmers gate. I understand the water comes from the hillside where there was a landslide x years ago? It may just be percolation water again.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
There is a definite inlet into Blue John Cavern near the top of the Inferior Gallery, and which arrives into the main passage partially via a phreatic tube with a vadose trench in the floor pointing toward Odin, but the passage is higher than the Odin workings. The water sinks into a choke in the floor of the inlet passage before the junction, and comes into the Inferior Gallery at floor level further down the slope. No idea if that one has been tested though.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member

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Whilst not fed by significant sized streams, a fair amount of water must end up in the system through the shakeholes that like on the rakes/faults as well. Perhaps this counts as "percolation water"? Have a look on Google Earth / Google maps satellite view and you can see all of the rakes clearly.
 
pwhole said:
There's also means to be a 'rising' somewhere on Red Seats Vein off the Pindale Road in very wet weather, according to Chris Heathcote, but I've never seen it - presumably it drains unknown stuff in Michill Bank. That hill holds some secrets...

Phil,

It's quite obvious when it's flowing - take a look on Google Earth and you can see the area where it rises quite clearly, grid ref is SK157826. It wells up in that patch of gruffy ground on the 180m contour.

D.
 
T,

P0 = P Zero, P1 = Perryfoot/ Dr Jackson's, P2 = Sheepwash, P3 = Gautries, P4 = Sludge Pit, P5 = unnamed (Where Ben lost his fingers), P6 = Little Bull Pit, P7 = unnamed, P8 = Jackpot, P9= Christmas Swallet, P10 = Snelslow Swallet, P11 = Giants Cave (Upper), P12 = Giants Hole, P13 = Giants Cave (Lower (Peakshill Cave))

Dan.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
As I posted it I was thinking this is an out of Date version, as I know that the Rowter Hole Dye trace has been done, so there are probably also a couple of other links which may have been filled in.

and I guess that the NP (nettle Pot?) dye trace is only theoretical to Cliffhanger sump [as not actually  joined], joint effort doesn't seem to have any known feeders.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Thanks for that Dan - I'd assumed that the rising would be nearer Pindale, so that makes it even more interesting, as it's much closer to the mine we explored and surveyed a couple of years ago. Though Google Earth's saying 180m altitude is Peakshole Water? The 'Callamy House'/field barn is at 212m.
 

Goydenman

Well-known member
There is a small stream flowing from Mam Tor Engine shaft along the level most flows out to the surface but some flows down the pitch to sink in the base of the shale chamber
 
pwhole said:
Thanks for that Dan - I'd assumed that the rising would be nearer Pindale, so that makes it even more interesting, as it's much closer to the mine we explored and surveyed a couple of years ago. Though Google Earth's saying 180m altitude is Peakshole Water? The 'Callamy House'/field barn is at 212m.

OS 1:25000 shows the barn at just below the 200m contour.

That particular rising and the one at Goosehill only flow in really big floods. Both only ever discharge clear water though which suggests percolation rather than overflow from the main swallet - resurgence systems. The Goosehill Hall rising is almost certainly something to do with the Longcliffe in my opinion. I have no suggestion as to the origin of the other rising.

D.
 
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