Goatchurch Cavern

cap n chris

Well-known member
Saturday 25th March.

While it is reassuring to see lots of novices out and about (i.e. UK caving might not be such terminal decline after all) it is slightly worrying when one bumps into groups underground wearing normal clothes and no helmets.

A group of three (1 with helmet, 2 without) were clearly lost but didn't ask for directions so I left them to find their own way out. There was another large group this morning all wearing jeans and t-shirts but at least they had helmets and lights. I wonder whether it ever occurs to people in such groups why it is that other people are wearing caving suits, wellington boots, knee pads, helmets & lights etc.... doesn't anyone ever think "Hey, wait a minute... am I being led underground by some rank amateur maverick?".

Also, it would be nice if group leaders with children told them to pick up their litter rather than allowing it to be dropped in front of their faces.

But, hey, what do I know; I'm just a caver.

Got a photo of some beautiful blue polyprop hawserlaid in a shite condition ready to be used as a line at the exit.

One of the other group leaders, on seeing I had a camera, pointed to the bats in the main entrance chamber, suggesting I get a photograph of them. He went quiet when informed that it is illegal to photograph bats without a licence. Begs the question, what do these leaders know about caving?
 

Sewer Rat

New member
Hmm I hear you regarding the so called leaders.
But Im concerned about the Photographing bat thing.
I have only be caving a year, and I had never heard of this.
I must admit I am guilty of the bat thing( without flash).

Most rules are a matter of common sence and without being told, you just know what is wrong or right.
It makes me worry about what other dos and donts there are,

Hey chris n you could write a book of dos and donts and publish it via that web site ( info courtecy of Andy S)
http://www.lulu.com/content/205067
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I recall in the early 1980's meeting a father and his son at the bottom of a short entrance shaft, neither had helmets. The father's head was bleeding quite badly. Apparently he had picked up a rock as a souvenir, and rather than carry it out tucked into his shirt, he had tried to throw it out to the surface, while standing at the bottom of the shaft, without a helmet.

And he still argued that you don't really need to wear helmets - 'after all its only a mine, not a cave?'

Duh - work that one out?!
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
I'm sure we all have our stories of meeting idiots underground, but its all about education. When I started I didnt have a helmet, I wore 'combats' and went galloping around box etc happy in what I was doing. Personally I dont see anything wrong in 'normal' clothes in places like goatchurch, its a shame to get them muddy but we have already had the 'trainer discussion' and if I remember most aggreed that wellys are better, trainers are not ideal but pose no threat. Helmets well, people tend to invest in helmets if they think they like caves and are going to do more, at £35 a pop for a basic protex helmet its not something you buy for a one off trip.

I do take a big interest in people 'hanging around' caves, mines etc and talk to them, get them on c**tplaces or ukcaving were people can be educated in whats the best thing to wear how helmets are for two things, somewhere to put your lamp! and to protect your head. Hopefully the people Cap 'n Chris saw today who didnt conform to 'standard issue caver' format will have seen what everone was wearing and decide to emulate it. People need to be engadged and pointed in the right direction.

I dont know if I fit into the 'dodgy leader' bracket, I'v lead 100s of groups in the corsham mines and have started in goatchurch now. I'v had no formal cave leader training. Am I a death trap! :roll:
 
E

emgee

Guest
c**tplaces said:
Helmets well, people tend to invest in helmets if they think they like caves and are going to do more, at £35 a pop for a basic protex helmet its not something you buy for a one off trip.

First "caving" helmet I got was a builders helmet two for a quid from a second hand shop. Perfectly adequate for the couple of times I used it.
 
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darkplaces

Guest
emgee said:
First "caving" helmet I got was a builders helmet two for a quid from a second hand shop. Perfectly adequate for the couple of times I used it.
Most people still wont bother for a first trip or if they do this once in a blue moon. I'm not saying its ideal, its what happens. You cant say bann them, that doesnt work.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
My only point was that even after effectively dropping a heavy rock on himself this person we met still couldn't grasp the fact that wearing a helmet would probably have been a good idea.

Perhaps Darwin was right.
 
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darkplaces

Guest
Yep Darwin was right.

Now the guy was an idiot if after that incident happend you dont get the idea of a helmet. Actually thats rather funny, lobbing a stone up a shaft and watching it return to smack you one in the head. I'm happy to explaine why people use helmets, if your an adult and still dont want one I am happy for them to die out.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Even more unbelievable is that this man was standing in a 2 foot diameter shaft with barely enough room to climb a ladder, let along lob a rock ten feet up in the air!
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
c**tplaces said:
I'm sure we all have our stories of meeting idiots underground, but its all about education. When I started I didnt have a helmet, I wore 'combats' and went galloping around box etc happy in what I was doing. Personally I dont see anything wrong in 'normal' clothes in places like goatchurch, its a shame to get them muddy but we have already had the 'trainer discussion' and if I remember most aggreed that wellys are better, trainers are not ideal but pose no threat. Helmets well, people tend to invest in helmets if they think they like caves and are going to do more, at £35 a pop for a basic protex helmet its not something you buy for a one off trip.

I do take a big interest in people 'hanging around' caves, mines etc and talk to them, get them on c**tplaces or ukcaving were people can be educated in whats the best thing to wear how helmets are for two things, somewhere to put your lamp! and to protect your head. Hopefully the people Cap 'n Chris saw today who didnt conform to 'standard issue caver' format will have seen what everone was wearing and decide to emulate it. People need to be engadged and pointed in the right direction.

I dont know if I fit into the 'dodgy leader' bracket, I'v lead 100s of groups in the corsham mines and have started in goatchurch now. I'v had no formal cave leader training. Am I a death trap! :roll:

I have to take isssue with you, DP. It isn't about education when people don't want to be educated. There are plenty of caving technique books freely available in libraries (and for £££ via shops and online); there are caving forums and caving clubs where advice is free. Many people do indeed go caving without knowing what they are doing - but this doesn't mean that what they are doing is OK. A joyrider may have a safe journey but it doesn't make his actions acceptable.

Helmets are available for a few pounds (site helmets); to not have one while underground is similar to doing your first bit of rock climbing without a harness/rope ("since they're so expensive we didn't think we'd bother"). You may get away with it but the obvious question is "Why is everyone else wearing one?" - you soon find out the hard way.

You'll know if you're a death trap if you or someone in your group sustains an easily avoidable injury just for the sake of hazard awareness and/or group management.
 

badger

Active member
going caving by yourself and with incorrect equipment, answerable to yourself and perhaps cave rescue, ambulance service etc.
being a cave leader and leading others underground,
written risk assessment,
10 min briefing on equipment, what its for, how to use it, do and dont's, explantion on hazards etc etc

basically COVER YOUR ASS,

perhaps if we as cavers see people incorrectly equipped we point them in the way of somebody who hires equipment and person's / clubs who are prepared to run caving trips
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Had a brief useful chat with three chaps yesterday down there (lost) wearing jeans and T-shirts, and strap on lamps on their (no helmet) heads; they were asking the way on deeper into the cave; I advised them that it would be helpful to have helmets and perhaps to reconsider going too far underground, saying that I was sure they'd be slightly concerned to see people rock climbing without ropes or harnesses and that caving without a helmet was in a similar vein.

They made their way out. All was pleasant but it made a contrast to meet these three guys only minutes after bumping into the likes of P & A Moody and J Volanthen outside!
 
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andymorgan

Guest
Hmm I may do a trip to Goatchurch naked, apart from a lamp and helmet..
 

AndyF

New member
c**tplaces said:
I dont know if I fit into the 'dodgy leader' bracket, I'v lead 100s of groups in the corsham mines and have started in goatchurch now. I'v had no formal cave leader training. Am I a death trap! :roll:

Depends if you have proper public liability insurance, first aid certicate etc. and always have another "guide" with you just in case it's you that has an accident, (perhaps as simple as tripping and knocking yourself out)

If not, then yes - probably.... :shock:
 

graham

New member
AndyF said:
c**tplaces said:
I dont know if I fit into the 'dodgy leader' bracket, I'v lead 100s of groups in the corsham mines and have started in goatchurch now. I'v had no formal cave leader training. Am I a death trap! :roll:

Depends if you have proper public liability insurance, first aid certicate etc. and always have another "guide" with you just in case it's you that has an accident, (perhaps as simple as tripping and knocking yourself out)

If not, then yes - probably.... :shock:

PI insurance won't stop you hurting/killing anyone, it just means you might have some cash left to live on after their relatives have sued you.

However, if I see anyone leading groups of 100 down Goatchurch, I might just get annoyed.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
chriscastle46 said:
Is John V. diving in Goatchurch?

Yes, he's set a new depth record for puddle diving but the way on was blocked by some gravel and a footprint. Apparently the visibility was poor and there weren't many belays for the line but a return is planned for next Winter; the potential is huge, apparently.
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
As a long term regular visitor to Goatchurch and other popular Mendip systems it seems to me that standards of equipment and leadership are generally pretty good these days. Chris may be horrified by the occasional poorly clad party but these are a rarity these days compared with ten years ago. I wonder how many Mendip cavers are aware that in the latter half of the 70s it was official CSCC policy to promote a novice training scheme that advised that novices should be sent underground without a leader or a helmet. Chris, if you can find a copy of 'Caving For Beginners' issued by CSCC in 1974 it will make interesting reading. This particular document illustrates very well the ideologically driven lunacy that certain influential Mendip cavers from the 50/60s generation were (and sadly still are) capable of.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Andy Sparrow said:
in the latter half of the 70s it was official CSCC policy to promote a novice training scheme that advised that novices should be sent underground without a leader or a helmet.

.... presumably on the grounds that if they were still OK when they got back to daylight they would make a good caver.

During the 70s what was the cave rescue annual events list like?
 
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