Using a caving harness for climbing or via ferrata

Jack Hare

New member
Hi all, a quick question: can I use a caving harness (one with a central maillon) for climbing or via ferrata, where there is a possibility of taking a large fall? My googling on the subject has drawn a blank, because the results are all about whether you can use a climbing harness for caving (answer: not really due to abrasion). Obviously the number of people wishing to try the opposite it quite limited, and I have no intention of being a test dummy. Does anyone have any experience, or know the manufacturers recommendation for this? For example, I have a Petzl Superavanti.
 

NewStuff

New member
Jack Hare said:
because the results are all about whether you can use a climbing harness for caving (answer: not really due to abrasion).

Meh. I use a DMM Brenin, I find it more comfortable. It gets checked, like all my SRT kit, after every trip, and I've yet to see any abrasion issues.  However, I'm tall, which may make up for the (in my mind) larger issue of attachment point being higher, potentially making it harder to ascend.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Caving harnesses and climbing harnesses are completely different fish. Made for specific uses and hence not interchangeable in the direction of intended use you stipulate. One is for vertical progression, the other is for fall arrest, respectively. Don't use the former in the latter scenario; to summarise:

Nope.

Mark Wright will be able to provide the relevant numbers for the testing standards which apply. You can then look them up and agree.

My dried-seaweed-hunch-meter [tm] says "If you take a monster whipper in a caving harness you'll probably get a compression that could break your pelvic girdle".
 
petzl FRACTIO
https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/0681r000009tDhQAAU
says "EN 12277:2015"
the BMC say https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1336 that en 12277 is the EU standard for  harness so if it has that its been tested an can be used but that a climbing harness may also have UIAA 105 which is more stringent.
The simple answer is to check the declaration of conformity for *your* harness.
It may well be fine for climbing !

 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
I note that the Petzl Superavanti Declaration of Conformity states it meets EN12277.  But the Petzl Superavanti Technical Note states "Caving harnesses are designed for ascending rope. These harnesses are not suitable for rock climbing because the very low attachment point increases the risk of inversion in a fall.

EN12277 is for mountaineering harnesses, see https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1336 and has four types of which type A being a full body harness and type C being a sit harness are of interest.

However EN361 covers PPE full body harnesses and EN813 covers PPE sit harnesses.  There are differences between the standards, the major one I think is that EN361 requires the body to fall into a 'head up' position where as EN12277 (and EN813) does not. (It is highly detailed stuff & I don't have time to compare them in detail.)  So the warning fits with the lack of a 'head up' requirement in EN12277.

My suggestion is go read the instructions of what ever harness you are thinking about using and the risks you are prepared to accept (like hanging upside down having knocked a chunk out of your head).

PS - UIAA safety standard 105 does not really add much to problem but can be read at https://www.theuiaa.org/documents/safety-standards/105_UIAA_Harnesses_2018.pdf.
 

Madness

New member
There's two sides to this argument:-

Remember that climbers used to lead and take big falls with ropes just tied around their waists. Yes, it hurt, yes, it probably did some lasting damage to internal organs, but they did it non the less. It gave them a bit of an incentive not to fall off! If you have even the slightest thought that you might fall off a Via Ferrata, then you shouldn't be doing one.

Alternatively, stop being a tight wad and buy a proper climbing harness.

 

blackshiver

Member
Caving harnesses have the attachment point too low and don?t have a belay loop or climbing (dynamic) rope tie in points.
In the event of a feet first fall while leading you are likely to break your pelvis and or finally invert - cracking your skull.
If its a head first fall there is a chance that you will just fall out of the harness head first.

In terms of via ferrata the last thing you need is a caving harness and cows tails. A climbing harness and a pair of shock adsorbing via ferrata lanyards is what (might) save your life if you have an Epic.

I once used a caving harness with a steel triangle mallion for climbing back in the 70?s when I was young and very stupid. I fell off leading and hit the deck when the mallion undid itself due to the rope rolling it open. I should have died, but it just hurt - Lots.

Go and buy a climbing harness, you know it makes sense.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
It would be entirely safe to use a caving harness in conjunction with an appropriate (rated) chest harness. A cheapskate could decide to fashion one out of a suitable length sling.

Remember that no sit harness, climbing or caving, would be suitable for use in industry (on its own) and yet climbers fall on them all the time (and admittedly sometimes invert).
 

blackshiver

Member
A suitably rated chest harness will cost more than a climbing harness and be less useful. Bodging a tape chest harness to a caving harness to avoid inversion might seem like a good idea but is a disaster waiting to happen, chest compression, bust ribs and the like. It is also likely to be very annoying on long or hard routes.

My humble advice to the OP is to get down to Go Outdoors and pick up a Climbing Harness for Thirty Quid and upwards. If you intend to do some Via Ferrata abroad I am happy to loan a pair of my screamer lanyards via Caver Post.

Then get out climbing / via ferratering and enjoy yourself.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/74732072@N08/21461339472/in/photostream/

 

mikem

Well-known member
At least one shop in Germany is advertising it as:
Petzl SUPERAVANTI, Red is developed for the following Sports & Activities:
Climbing and Bouldering
Mountaineering and Trekking
Petzl SUPERAVANTI, Red can be used in the following Weather conditions:
Warm
Cold
Sun
Wind
Rain
Although they do describe it as a CAVING harness, they don't seem to have a caving option on their uses chart.

Petzl's technical notice states:
6. Techniques
Caving harnesses are designed for ascending rope. These harnesses are not suitable for rock climbing because the very low attachment point increases the risk of inversion in a fall.

I'd use one for seconding / top roping (better than making a harness out of slings), but not leading or via ferrata with vertical cables (so not where you are likely to take a big fall). Obviously cavers have used them for climbing avens etc, but I'm not aware of anyone having a big fall - however, it must have happened...
 

Jack Hare

New member
Thanks all for the detailed advice. I have a climbing harness, but was wondering whether I could lend a caving harness to a friend for climbing or VF. Now I know not to! Fortunately I'm not foolish enough to do VF on cowstails, but hopefully if someone else sees this thread in the future, they'll be warned off using cowstails as well.
 

Wardy

Active member
As manufacturers of harnesses for industry SpanSet advise on this type of thing a lot.

A simple way to look at it is that whilst something may be capable of doing what you want, it may not be ideal and the outcome may be less certain.
What we want customers to do is use the right tool for the right job and go on to" fight another day".

Standards include criteria that should provide an assurance that the equipment will perform for the intended purpose.
Part of this is taking into account the compatible equipment that it will be used with and the demands that equipment will place upon it and in turn you.

You can compare harnesses designed to arrest falls between industry and leisure both of which can cope with dynamic forces;
Industrial Fall Arrest Harnesses are designed for use with specific lanyards and devices that limit the impact forces and fall distances to below set levels.

In climbing situations the equipment used with the harness is different and when leading the potential impact forces and fall distances can be in excess of those in industry. Therefore whilst an industrial Fall Arrest Harness may work for leisure climbing it is simply the wrong tool for the job.

When comparing two leisure harnesses, one designed for static positioning and the other for arresting falls then the big difference is the type of load they are designed and tested for.

A caving harness is intended for static positioning with devices such as ascenders and descenders and the attachment points are biased towards this making their use easier.
The suspension height is also generally lower to improve ascending efficiency.

A climbing harness is intended to cope with dynamic forces generated during falls and the attachment points are biased for tying ropes into.
The suspension height is generally higher to keep you upright in the event of a fall and the padding should help with comfort.

Another good way of looking at this topic would be to consider that over the years I have taken various cars up unmade tracks with varying success.
It is amazing where a Fiat Uno will get to, but it always surprised me that it did and that it returned in one piece. I had the misfortune to drive a BMW for a few years and that could get stuck anywhere.
I have also driven some 4x4's and not only did they get where I wanted, but I was altogether more confident and relaxed as it happened.

The right tool for the job everytime - Now pass me that hammer this screw needs putting in!



 

nobrotson

Active member
I would say that if you have a serious (high factor) fall on any via ferrata terrain, you are going to really really hurt yourself and quite possibly die regardless of what kind of harness you are wearing. I think wearing a caving harness to do via ferrata should be the least of your concerns. Not falling off should be the main one.

Climbing in a caving harness does sound a bit unnecessarily uncomfortable, even if they just second you all the way on a multipitch.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
This is an interesting discussion. I was introduced to via ferrata a few years ago, and the only harness I had available was my caving one . . . which I used, (na?vely?) assuming that with the right  ? i.e. safety/shock-absorbing ? safety cords, the harness was of secondary importance. Ah well, I didn't fall off and put it to the test!
 

StarburstCLA

New member
I've always used a chest tape on my caving harness and was under the impression everyone did so falling out of harness isn't an issues on via feratta and less worry about inversion. As it is I felt perfectly safe in a caving harness, a via ferrata set up seems closer to a caving set up than a climbing one IMHO with a central attachment point and some cows tails, be it that one is static and two dynamic shock absorbers.

Certainly I might bow to the safety ratings if it's actually clear rather than a bit of hand waving over "what its designed for". Inversion might be more of a risk but I felt safe and was with a group many of using caving harnesses last time I did via ferrata.

Climbing I have no say on. All crazy suicidal people to me :p
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Incidentally, while crossing a 'monkey bridge' (is that the correct term for a single-cable walk-way with cable supports may 1.2 m above?) it occurred to me that if I slipped off on the 'proper' via ferrata safety cords, I'd be left hanging below the lower cable, so I used my caving ones as well, on the ground that that way, if I slipped off, I'd only drop a few centimetres and not put much of a load on them.
 

Mike Hopley

New member
StarburstCLA said:
Certainly I might bow to the safety ratings if it's actually clear rather than a bit of hand waving over "what its designed for". Inversion might be more of a risk

My dad fell off VF Tomaselli on a vertical section. He fell straight down maybe 4 metres and was then caught by the ferrata cowstails on the next peg (with 700 metres of air below him!). That's something like a factor 4 or 5 fall.

Observation 1: don't wait underneath a climber on ferrata! Many people do, on busy routes. Thankfully I stayed to the side.

Observation 2: had he used caving cowstails, he would certainly be dead.

Observation 3: the amount of bruising around his waist and thighs was unbelievable. The climbing harness spread the load very effectively. It really hurt, but he had no lasting injuries. I doubt a typical caving harness would have spread the load as effectively.

Observation 4: in a significant vertical fall, inversion is a real possibility. When you stop hard, you might easily tip over backwards. A climbing harness is designed to grip the pelvis and prevent falling out; most caving harnesses are less good at this. Children need a full-body harness, because their pelvis hasn't fully developed.

but I felt safe and was with a group many of using caving harnesses last time I did via ferrata.

Observation 5: a bunch of other people doing something questionably safe does not make it any safer.

In the context of a holiday, the cost of a climbing harness is pretty minor. Just buy the damn kit. ;)

Of course, if you're only doing horizontal sections, there's little need for anything specialist.

Observation 6: my dad is a badass. ;)
 
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