Keeping Safe Sport Caving in the Winter

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richardg

richardg

Active member
Just to remind some and make others aware

When there is snow around and it is raining, the chances of caves flooding is considerably higher.

Also note that although snow might not be evident  on the ground near a cave entrance, the stream flowing through a cave might have it's source higher up a hill where there are still plenty of snow......

If it is raining, then the temperature is high enough to melt snow.

Even though a hill side might be largely clear of snow, snow drifts banked against walls contain a lot of frozen water which when it melts can cause a considerable release of water, which can then cause a dramatic knock on effect underground...

Also....
Direct observation may show that water levels to quite low, beware .... this might be the consequence of an overnight freeze...... which may be followed by a day time thaw......

Richard.
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
Alex said:
I was wondering if it was worth caving this weekend...
Click to expand...

It's always worth caving at the weekend.

Just some weekends, you need to be more selective about the trip...
 
paul

paul

Moderator
It was fun getting to the top of the first pitch on the Fossil Route in Sell Gill Holes (a bit too wet for the Goblin Route) last Saturday. There was a snow plug in the small gully approaching the pitch head with its surface about a metre and a half higher than the first pair of bolts for the initial Y-hang and it continued at the same level to overhang the pitch head.
There was also a large dump of snow on the floor of the pitch in the daylight section.
 
alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
Derbyshire's good for Dry weather options. We had some Yorkshire folk in Oxlow last weekend, and I'm sure they enjoyed themselves. We went for a good trip down New Oxlow down North pitch and to PB's Dams. Then back through Pilgrims way, taking a look at the small stream that disappears in the floor, not long after the promising Blacks Folly...

But then again there are places in Derbyshire I'd rather not be when the water is high!
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
I am so sick of the wet weather trips, there is only a few unless someone can think of somewhere unusual.

Sick of Ease gill high level,
sick of Boggarts and Trapdoor,
sick of Sell gill
sick of any of the other standard SRT trips.

I wish there was a NFTFH when it's pissing down book.

Is there really no where to go, to be fair, as the caves I want to do can only be done in dry weather and I have been everywhere else worth going in the Dales, maybe I should give up on this caving lark as I do think there is no where left to go in the Dales, and trying to get my mates to go to other regoins is like trying to convince flat earthers the world is round!

Hacked off I am! When will it stop raining, I have had one good trip all fecking year and that was only half of quaking!
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
Alex said:
... and trying to get my mates to go to other regoins is like trying to convince flat earthers the world is round!
Click to expand...

Then go on your own and make some new mates in another region.

Or go on your own and cave solo when you get there  (y)
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
True but its hard when other regions lock their caves and even if they don't finding them is a problem. I do solo but I prefer to go with someone else for company especially if it's a cave I do not know.
 
Simon Beck

Simon Beck

Member
Alex said:
I am so sick of the wet weather trips, there is only a few unless someone can think of somewhere unusual.

Sick of Ease gill high level,
sick of Boggarts and Trapdoor,
sick of Sell gill
sick of any of the other standard SRT trips.

I wish there was a NFTFH when it's pissing down book.

Is there really no where to go, to be fair, as the caves I want to do can only be done in dry weather and I have been everywhere else worth going in the Dales, maybe I should give up on this caving lark as I do think there is no where left to go in the Dales, and trying to get my mates to go to other regoins is like trying to convince flat earthers the world is round!

Hacked off I am! When will it stop raining, I have had one good trip all fecking year and that was only half of quaking!
Click to expand...

At least you are aware of the limitations the weather imposes Alex. Unlike the group last Saturday who decided they'd go and do Dowbergill, with none or little experience of the cave (I heard it was their first time through) after a night of rainfall/snow melt, and weeks of prior poor weather. The overall attitude in Kettlewell among the locals/farmers on the Tuesday after the rescue was not positive at all towards caving. And that's without bringing up the subject. For once I had to agree with those who condemned the cavers for putting other peoples lives at risk. I never thought the day would come when I sided with those who have little insight of what caving is really about, in this instance I couldn't help it, they exercised very poor judgement! They were very lucky they visited a cave where the odds of surviving a big flood are very good.


   
 
george

george

Member
Hi Alastairgott, I was a Yorkshire dweller in Oxlow last week and it was great fun!
I did, however, say to the others that it was a 'dry' trip - and then the third pitch happened....
We were all made very welcome though by the strange Derbyshire types, who let us get undressed in their lay-by.
 
2xw

2xw

Active member
Simon Beck said:
Alex said:
I am so sick of the wet weather trips, there is only a few unless someone can think of somewhere unusual.

Sick of Ease gill high level,
sick of Boggarts and Trapdoor,
sick of Sell gill
sick of any of the other standard SRT trips.

I wish there was a NFTFH when it's pissing down book.

Is there really no where to go, to be fair, as the caves I want to do can only be done in dry weather and I have been everywhere else worth going in the Dales, maybe I should give up on this caving lark as I do think there is no where left to go in the Dales, and trying to get my mates to go to other regoins is like trying to convince flat earthers the world is round!

Hacked off I am! When will it stop raining, I have had one good trip all fecking year and that was only half of quaking!
Click to expand...

At least you are aware of the limitations the weather imposes Alex. Unlike the group last Saturday who decided they'd go and do Dowbergill, with none or little experience of the cave (I heard it was their first time through) after a night of rainfall/snow melt, and weeks of prior poor weather. The overall attitude in Kettlewell among the locals/farmers on the Tuesday after the rescue was not positive at all towards caving. And that's without bringing up the subject. For once I had to agree with those who condemned the cavers for putting other peoples lives at risk. I never thought the day would come when I sided with those who have little insight of what caving is really about, in this instance I couldn't help it, they exercised very poor judgement! They were very lucky they visited a cave where the odds of surviving a big flood are very good.


 
Click to expand...

I think you're entirely ignorant of what they were doing and what their intentions were, mostly because the rescue was not caused by high water but by exhaustion. The entirety of prov was fine, which was why the 'casualties' walked out.

I accept that in this case you have sided with those who are ignorant of what caving is about and are ignorant of what happened, because you have demonstrated this.

Best to keep such ignorance to yourself lest it proliferate.
 
Tommy

Tommy

Active member
Be mindful of your public comments Simon.

Those who were involved in the rescue, either those trapped or those instrumental in the efforts to get them out are far more aware of what happened than you are, and it's them that have to deal with the personal effects, not yourself.

With respect, the least you can do is avoid adding to the ordeal in what is a very delicate time for some.
 
alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
george said:
I did, however, say to the others that it was a 'dry' trip - and then the third pitch happened....
Click to expand...

I said the same to Pwhole (a white lie like yours ;) ), and then the "duck" happened below North pitch to Boulder hall. It was a Grovel through water.
A total ear wetting though. I think I might have been momentarily wet behind the ears!
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
Coming back was even more entertaining, with the water coming toward you, and henceforth straight inside my suit. But it was still fantastic, and far bigger than I expected down there. Agreed that the third pitch base was rather ridiculous. Derbyshire's got shedloads of dry caving though Alex, and very few keys or permits required, so get yourself down here.
 
Simon Beck

Simon Beck

Member
2xw said:
Simon Beck said:
Alex said:
I am so sick of the wet weather trips, there is only a few unless someone can think of somewhere unusual.

Sick of Ease gill high level,
sick of Boggarts and Trapdoor,
sick of Sell gill
sick of any of the other standard SRT trips.

I wish there was a NFTFH when it's pissing down book.

Is there really no where to go, to be fair, as the caves I want to do can only be done in dry weather and I have been everywhere else worth going in the Dales, maybe I should give up on this caving lark as I do think there is no where left to go in the Dales, and trying to get my mates to go to other regoins is like trying to convince flat earthers the world is round!

Hacked off I am! When will it stop raining, I have had one good trip all fecking year and that was only half of quaking!
Click to expand...

At least you are aware of the limitations the weather imposes Alex. Unlike the group last Saturday who decided they'd go and do Dowbergill, with none or little experience of the cave (I heard it was their first time through) after a night of rainfall/snow melt, and weeks of prior poor weather. The overall attitude in Kettlewell among the locals/farmers on the Tuesday after the rescue was not positive at all towards caving. And that's without bringing up the subject. For once I had to agree with those who condemned the cavers for putting other peoples lives at risk. I never thought the day would come when I sided with those who have little insight of what caving is really about, in this instance I couldn't help it, they exercised very poor judgement! They were very lucky they visited a cave where the odds of surviving a big flood are very good.


 
Click to expand...

I think you're entirely ignorant of what they were doing and what their intentions were, mostly because the rescue was not caused by high water but by exhaustion. The entirety of prov was fine, which was why the 'casualties' walked out.

I accept that in this case you have sided with those who are ignorant of what caving is about and are ignorant of what happened, because you have demonstrated this.

Best to keep such ignorance to yourself lest it proliferate.
Click to expand...

I'm a local caver and my views are still my own. Not everyone I encountered was completely ignorant I might add, one was a land owner of another notorious pothole, and the scene of it's fair share of problematic rescues. I was caving on Great Whernside over the course of those days and know what water levels were like. The weather forecast the evening prior to that rescue was horrendous. The river rose at least a metre due to it. If this was down purely to exhaustion then I'm sorry but I think you've been misinformed.

These types of rescues were commonplace once upon a time, but things have changed and I won't state the obvious here. I'm concerned that should something similar happen in one of the more difficult Wharfedale sites, it's going to be disastrous! These things need to be spoken about and not just brushed under the carpet. It's not the first recent local rescue that could have been avoided with a little better forethought.   
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
2xw said:
... the rescue was not caused by high water but by exhaustion. ...
Click to expand...

Really? That's not how the UWFRA report reads.

Topimo said:
Those who were involved in the rescue, either those trapped or those instrumental in the efforts to get them out are far more aware of what happened than you are, ...
Click to expand...
Please tell us more because the opinions of the locals in Wharfedale do matter and if Simon Beck is wrong it would be useful to be able to give another point of view.
 
Tommy

Tommy

Active member
Simon Wilson said:
2xw said:
... the rescue was not caused by high water but by exhaustion. ...
Click to expand...

Really? That's not how the UWFRA report reads.

Topimo said:
Those who were involved in the rescue, either those trapped or those instrumental in the efforts to get them out are far more aware of what happened than you are, ...
Click to expand...
Please tell us more because the opinions of the locals in Wharfedale do matter and if Simon Beck is wrong it would be useful to be able to give another point of view.
Click to expand...

I never suggested that people's opinions do not matter or that anyone is right or wrong.
I am pointing out that care should be taken posting those opinions on a public forum which may be read by those involved.

I'd imagine they had time to think about why they were in that situation during the 26 hours they spent underground, and don't need unsolicited punditry from UKC.

Whatever the cause of the rescue, lambasting the cavers after the event will not help. I'm sure they aren't hop-skipping away from this guilt-free.

It sounds like quite an ordeal I'm sure most of us would not like to go through.

Have a little decency and gently remove your oars, or keep the pernicious discussion to a pub somewhere in the Dales. Please.
 
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